Welcome back, fellow Stormlight fans! Today’s chapter features a handsome prince (::swoon::), the corpse of a traitor (::cheer::), and a certain grizzled Highprince prepared to do whatever it takes to bring unity to the world (::Bridge 4 salute::).
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL (and the two previous) in each reread. There’s no Cosmere connectivity this week. But if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done, because there are references all over the book this week.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Adolin Kholin, Dalinar Kholin
WHERE: Urithiru
WHEN: 1174.1.1.4 (Same day as last chapter)
We begin this chapter with refugees from the Shattered Plains having arrived at Urithiru. Despite Navani’s attempts to organize them, chaos reigns. Adolin is attempting to supervise the chaos while still sporting his broken wrist from the battle.
Dalinar arrives to find Bridge 4 at the brink of battle with Sadeas’s men over the Highprince’s corpse. He calms the situation and leads his own men outside to allow Sadeas’s men to cool down and care for the body of their Highprince. Everyone else is unconcerned about the death of the traitor, but Dalinar reminds them that this murder could prove a stumbling block in his goal for unity. He assigns Aladar and Sebarial as Highprinces of Information and Commerce, orders Adolin to set a training regimen for the men, and Shallan and Renarin to learn as much about their powers as they can.
Threshold of the Storm
Herald: Ishar. Patron of the Bondsmiths, known as the Herald of Luck, or Binder of Gods. He is associated with the Divine Attributes of Pious and Guiding.
Alice: I assume this is because Dalinar is acting Bondsmithy. We certainly don’t see Ishar in person, nor is he mentioned. Dalinar is guiding and unifying; I think that’s enough.
Icon: The Shardbearer
A: Since we didn’t know if this icon would be reserved solely for Adolin, or if it would later encompass others, Carl and I dubbed it “The Shardbearer.” So far, I think we’ve only seen it on chapters that begin with Adolin’s POV, like this one, or where he’s the primary POV.
Title: One Problem Solved
“Well!” said Palona, hands on hips as she regarded Sadeas’s corpse. “I guess that’s one problem solved!”
A: Needless to say, pretty much everyone but Dalinar, including most readers, agree with Palona here. There are more than enough problems to deal with right now; Sadeas skulking around trying to undermine Dalinar at every turn would not be helpful.
Epigraph:
I needed to write it anyway.—from Oathbringer, preface
A: Okay, then. Write on.
Stories & Songs
“[The Desolations] were destruction made manifest, Brightlord. Each one was so profoundly devastating that humankind was left broken. Populations ruined, society crippled, scholars dead. Humankind was forced to spend generations rebuilding after each one. Songs tell of how the losses compounded upon one another, causing us to slide farther each time, until the Heralds left a people with swords and fabrials and returned to find them wielding sticks and stone axes.”
A: So… I guess my brain is broken today, or something, but someone please remind me… Do normal everyday Alethi (or other Rosharans) believe the Desolations happened? I can’t honestly remember how much of it they believed, and how much was relegated to mythology. Lyn, can you help me?
Lyn: I found quite a few references in The Way of Kings, but all of them are from the higher/learned class and not the common people. Dalinar, Shallan, Renarin, and Navani all talk about them at points in TWoK, but Jasnah has the most breadth of knowledge on the subject.
“The Voidbringers were an embodiment of evil. We fought them off ninety and nine times, led by the Heralds and their chosen knights, the ten orders we call the Knights Radiant. Finally, Aharietiam came, the Last Desolation. The Voidbringers were cast back into the Tranquiline Halls. The Heralds followed to force them out of heaven as well, and Roshar’s Heraldic Epochs ended.”
Since I didn’t find a single reference from anyone who wasn’t high nobility or a scholar, I’d theorize that the common people don’t actually think they happened.
“[The Voidbringers] came to annihilate. Their goal was to wipe humankind from Roshar. They were specters, formless—some say they are spirits of the dead, others spren from Damnation.”
L: What we know now about the true identity of the Voidbringers makes this interesting to consider.
A: The history she’s quoting is probably from the time when the Voidbringers literally were the spirits of the dead Parsh, with their goal to wipe humankind from Roshar. But it’s still ironic, given the earlier history.
L: I rather like how the perceived identity of the Voidbringers shifts over time. At first, the Singers called the humans Voidbringers. But over the years this reverses. It’s almost as if the term is simply a “boogey man” type word that the prevailing culture adopts.
A: It seems to be used that way now, mostly relegated to mythology and children’s stories by both species—but it’s rooted in fact. The Singers correctly called the humans “Voidbringers” when they arrived with the powers of Odium (assuming that’s how it worked). But then the humans were accepted by Honor and Cultivation, and the Singers turned to Odium for power – so now they’re the ones who use Odium’s power and Voidbinding.
L: That makes sense. Voidbringer = anyone who works with Odium then, in this case.
A: That’s my understanding, anyway. It reminds me of what Eshonai thought in the Prologue—that in all the stories, the humans were dark, formless monsters. Is that a blending of the human-Voidbringers and the ancestor-Voidbringers? Or did humans once do all that creepy stuff that the Fused do now?
Relationships & Romances
“Other Radiants will be coming to us, and you two will need to lead them. The knights were once our greatest weapon against the Voidbringers. They will need to be so again.” “Father, I…“ Renarin stumbled over the words. “It’s just … Me? I can’t. I don’t know how to … let alone…” “Son,” Dalinar said, stepping over. He took Renarin by the shoulder. “I trust you. The Almighty and the spren have granted you powers to defend and protect this people. Use them. Master them, then report back to me what you can do. I think we’re all curious to find out.”
A: I recall a lot of debate about what Renarin meant here. I’m personally convinced that he was reacting to Dalinar’s suggestion that he should lead the Radiants who would be coming. It could have something to do with his visions or some uncertainty about Glys, but in context, I still believe he was flipping out about having to lead people.
L: Could be a combination of the two. He barely knows what he’s doing when it comes to Radiantness, so teaching others? I can see how that would be scary. What I find more interesting about this exchange is that it’s the beginning of a bigger interpersonal arc—Dalinar and Renarin’s often strained father/son relationship.
A: It’s hard to know what to say about the relationship between father and son here. Do we talk about it in light of what we already know at this point in the story, or about all the things we’re going to learn in the rest of the book?
At this point Dalinar treats him well—lovingly, gently, but still expecting him to do what he can to contribute—a reasonably healthy relationship, all in all. As we’ll see much later, though, their relationship has not been good until the last seven years; up until Renarin was about twelve, Dalinar couldn’t even be bothered to remember his name. A lot has changed.
L: I wonder how much of this could be guilt, trying to atone for past sins. We know that he doesn’t remember Evi at this point in the story, but does he remember how he’d treated his sons? If so, there may be something to be said about how, now that Renarin is a Radiant, he’s “worth” Dalinar’s time and attention. I don’t remember him really spending much thought on Renarin in WoK or WoR, but now that he’s useful in war? This makes horrible sense in light of Alethi cultural norms.
A: Ewww. That’s a creepy thought, but I don’t quite believe it—or I don’t want to. As near as I can tell, Renarin mostly wants to please his father and brother—not out of fear, but because he loves them. They in turn love him, but… It seems that Adolin is close to his brother and accepts him as he is, without having to ever think about it. Dalinar seems… a little at a loss, sometimes, how to deal with his very different sons. Even in this chapter, he thinks of them as “His sons, steady Adolin and impenetrable Renarin.” Dalinar has come to love Renarin, but still doesn’t relate to him very well. Perhaps Renarin’s new status gives Dalinar a little more “handle” on how to interact with him, because there’s finally something specific that Renarin is uniquely able to do. So I would say (maybe because I want to believe it!) that it’s less a matter of “now that he’s useful” and more a matter of “now he has a recognizable role.”
Squires & Sidekicks
Bridge 4’s first appearance in this book! Huzzah! Sadly we don’t get to spend a lot of time with them, but that’s what Part 2 is for.
“Navani said [squires] were a type of apprentice Radiant that had once been common: men and women whose abilities were tied to their master, a full Radiant.”
L: Lots of discussion on this in the preview chapter comments. RobertD picked up on the fact that the Windrunner squires only have access to their abilities within a specific radius from their patron Radiant. Kefka said, “From what I understand, each order has a certain special ability unconnected to the surges. … Squires are only ever mentioned in connection with the Windrunners, so that might be theirs.” I went on the hunt for a WoB to verify or contradict this, and came up with a couple.
WoB: “…each Order, there are things that come with [it], things that do not add up from the simple “you get this power plus this power.” For Windrunners, watch the number and the power of the squires. Some Orders don’t have [squires].” [But some have more.]
L: In a different WoB, he said that [Kaladin’s] unique ability is “Strength of Squires”. Interesting that he specifies strength of squires. Strength as in, strength of their powers? Or strength of numbers?
A: Or both? Even by the end of the book, we have very little for comparison; just a few glimpses of the Skybreaker training. But it seems like Kaladin not only has a host of squires, but they are strong, and quick to learn.
L: So many questions about squires remain! How many other orders can have them? What are their powers? The only clue I found in the Arcanum is as follows:
“For most orders, squires were knights radiant potentially in training.”
To me, this implies that most squires eventually became full-fledged Knights Radiant, as opposed to remaining squires with that specific skill-set (whatever that may be) in perpetuity.
A: Well, we don’t need to jump ahead to the Skybreaker scenes yet, but that’s certainly reflective of what they do. You start as a basic recruit, and then someone takes you on as a squire, and then (hopefully) you get bonded by a spren.
L: It seems to be a minor distinction—in the Skybreakers, you begin your training and gain some small amount of abilities, and then you’re taken on as a squire; whereas in Kaladin’s Windrunners, he takes them on as squires and then they start gaining powers. Whether this is how it was done in the past or just an artifact of Kaladin’s tendency to pick up strays and tuck them under his wings is up for debate.
A: What I really want to know, suddenly, is whether a Windrunner usually makes an active choice of squires, or if it’s more “anyone in his gang.” But again, we can talk about that more in Part 2 when it gets active.
Either way, Dalinar’s lack of officers explained the room’s other occupants: Highprince Sebarial and his mistress, Palona.
“I know you’re desperate, Dalinar,” Sebarial said. “My presence here is sufficient proof of that. But surely we haven’t sunk so far as to be better off with Sadeas among us.”
A: Sanderson takes some pains to point out that Dalinar is functioning without anything like his normal support structure. The paragraphs just before that first quote detail the list of his best officers who have been lost recently, either at the Tower or at Narak. He’s only got one highlord left—Khal, who is recuperating from wounds suffered at Narak. He’s forced to rely on Aladar, Sebarial, and Adolin, and whatever he can get from two very young (ages 17 and 19) and very fledgling Radiants. And Navani, of course…
L: Two? Excuse you, I think you’re forgetting a certain broody Bridgeboy.
A: I’m not forgetting him, but he’s miles away, and no knowing when he’ll be back. He’s not much help just now. If he were here, he’d up the age range to a whopping 20—though at least he has command and combat experience.
Places & Peoples
Women gathered water at the well in the center.
L: The fact that Urithiru has wells intrigues me. Looking at the drawing of the city’s architecture below, it seems like any water would have to be pulled up from really far down. Do they have functional water ladders that pull the water up, or is the water just collected rain water? The mentioned aqueducts are probably just moving the water around once it’s already in the city.
A: I’m so easy to please. I just assumed there are artesian wells here. But now that you mention it, it can’t be rainwater; Urithiru is mostly above the rains. If that was the direct source, it would be kinda scarce, wouldn’t it?
L: I was a little iffy on the definition of artesian wells so I looked it up. Apparently the water table would need to be higher than the well on either side for that to work, which is impossible given how high up Urithiru is. I don’t claim to be knowledgeable in… watery matters (hydrodynamics? hydraulics?), maybe someone in the comments will have a better idea as to how this is being accomplished.
A: Hmmm. I hope there’s a natural explanation as opposed to mechanical, because literally everything else about Urithiru that was designed to support human habitation is dependent on powering up the city. Lighting, plumbing, waste disposal, crops, heat… all sorts of things are hinted at having existed somewhere along the line. Like this bit:
At first, these wide flat sections of stone had baffled them. But the furrows in the stone, and planter boxes on the inner edges, had revealed their purpose. Somehow, these were fields. Like the large spaces for gardens atop each tier of the tower, this area had been farmed, despite the cold.
We get hints from the later epigraphs that it was the Stormlight-powered city that made it possible, though we don’t know how. But it doesn’t seem reasonable that the wells are magic-powered when nothing else is.
Oh… except don’t we learn somewhere along the line that the air pressure up here isn’t as low as it ought to be for the elevation? So maybe there are still a few basic functions being maintained? So many new questions.
L: When speaking to the discontented people, Adolin thinks about how carting water was beneath their nahn, and how Dalinar would now need to be paying people for work that has traditionally been done for free by the parshmen. This is going to create a huge financial burden on the Alethi as society readjusts—not to mention the fact that some privileged people are going to need to begin doing menial labor. The societal implications of all of this are huge.
A: If I were a better historian, I’d go look at how various cultures have dealt with the sudden cessation of slavery.
L: Yeah, honestly… Anything I could find out would just be gleaned from wikipedia, which isn’t the greatest of sources. I think we’ll leave the detailed analysis on this one to the professionals.
A: Exactly. In most RL cases, though, the former slaves were still there and now needed an income, so there was often an incentive to create an employer/employee relationship to replace the owner/slave system. In this case, the slaves are gone—either because they took off, or because the humans left them behind or kicked them out as “too dangerous to have around.” So there’s no one but other humans to do the work. And the ones who aren’t already slaves need paying.
“The walls were twisted with lines—natural strata of alternating earthy colors, like those made by crem drying in layers.”
L: Ah, our first mention in OB of the weird strata. In the comments last week, kirgen brought up an excellent point regarding the windblades having similar lines.
A: It’s in Chapter one: “Even the windblades—once magnificent, sleek rock formations exposing countless strata and variations—had been shattered.” (Also, much later, Kaladin thinks “The large curves of stone glittered with red, white, and orange strata,)
L: Good catch, Kirgen! They later go on to predict that “like Urithiru, they were built to be powered in some way; built to provide an essential function. But now that they have fallen into the hands the Fused will that power be subverted?” Man. This is a really good theory. I wouldn’t be surprised if the strata are some sort of latent defense mechanism, powered by collected stormlight. That big column of fused gemstones in Urithiru being the battery that powers the whole shebang.
A: I’m with the popular theory that the strata in Urithiru carry energy (when the gemstone column is powered up) to provide lighting, heat, perhaps even communications. I hadn’t thought about the windblades also being an energy conduit, but it’s a fascinating thought.
L: And since we’re talking about Urithiru… we finally get a full description of the architecture!
Created from a sequence of ten ring-like tiers—each containing eighteen levels—the tower city was adorned with aqueducts, windows, and balconies like this one.
The bottom floor also had wide sections jutting out at the perimeter: large stone surfaces, each a plateau in its own right. They had stone railings at their edges, where the rock fell away into the depths of the chasms between mountain peaks.
L: It reminds me a bit of Minas Tirith.
A: I have a hard time wrapping my head around it all; the drawing helps, but… wow.
L: Back in the preview chapters, Havoc picked out an interesting little bit of history. “Shin Invasions!!?” they asked. “Weren’t they supposed to be a peaceful people?”
This is a great question. I couldn’t find anything indicating that the Shin were ever on the offensive, which makes me wonder if we misread that little bit and what was actually meant was that other countries were invading them.
A: There’s nothing in the WoBs—I can’t believe no one has asked him about this yet! If the Shin did try invading the rest of the world, maybe it was because they thought it was their job as holders of the Honorblades. It was probably before the Heirocracy, if these are listed in chronological order, so it could be really, really old. The thought about “stone is holy” is fascinating to reflect on; why would they try to invade all that stone-land? Personally, I think it’s likely that their thing about warriors being the lowest level of society—and their being such a peaceful people—is a result of the failed invasions, much like the current position of the Vorin ardenia is a result of the church trying to seize power. “We’re not going to let that happen again!’
L: I’m sticking to my “it was the other way around” theory for now…
L: Since we’re talking about the Shin, I’d like to bring up a comment from last week’s post revisiting our discussion on the thunderclasts. JoshB said: “I remember Szeth making a huge deal about Shin being forbidden to tread on non-Soulcast stone. This was probably an early reference to the connection the Shin have with the spren, and the constant ability of some spren to possess such stone like a body.”
A: Interesting theory. My problem with it is that I don’t recall anything about the Shin having any sort of special connection with the spren. The Parshendi certainly do, and (likely as a result of crossbreeding) the Horneaters do as well. Spren are rarely even seen in Shinovar, so… I’m not sure I can agree.
Tight Butts and Coconuts
Looking down on Sadeas’s corpse, Palona says:
“Well! I guess that’s one problem solved.”
L: Bless you Palona. ::Potato-GLaDOS voice:: “Yeah! Yeah! She says what we’re all thinking!”
“You’d better be ready for Damnation’s own thunder,”
A: I don’t recall hearing this one before, but it’s quite the curse! Doesn’t take much to figure out how serious that’s supposed to be. “
“Blood of my fathers”
L: I really liked this in-world curse, but I didn’t remember it, so out of curiosity I went back and looked it up. Interestingly, it was used 14 times in WoK, but never in WoR. Maybe it’s just because we didn’t get as many Dalinar POV sections in WoR.
Weighty Words
L: At the end of the chapter, Dalinar instructs Shallan and Renarin to experiment with their powers more. To Renarin, he says, “I think we’re all curious to find out [what you can do].”
UNDERSTATEMENT OF THE CENTURY, DALINAR. Even at the end of OB, there are still so many questions about Renarin! What’s going on with his corrupted spren? What can he and can’t he do? We know he can heal people, that’s for certain. But can he see the future?
In the preview chapters, manavortex commented that “[At a] signing I asked whether Glys was equally “of Cultivation” that Syl is of Honor. I tried to get anything out of him about Glys’ possible Voidyness. He RAFO’d me, though, so – I’m still concerned for Renarin. More so, now.”
L: You and me both, manavortex. It’s worthwhile to note that Brandon’s RAFO’d a lot of stuff about the Truthwatchers and their spren, saying that he’s “not willing to canonize that yet.” To me, that sounds like “I haven’t 100% figured it out myself yet” rather than a simple RAFO.
A: About seeing the future, though—we know he can do that. Near the end of the book, he even thinks about how everything he’d ever seen happened as he’d seen it, except the one where Jasnah killed him. (That’s why he smiled at the Fused just before Bridge Four came through the Oathgate. I love that scene.)
Murky Motivations
L: I’d like to spend some time talking about Adolin’s motivation in killing Sadeas, because it seems to be a bit of a contentious subject.
A: Really? You’re going to spend time talking about Adolin? I’m shocked. Shocked, I say.
L: LOOK, HE’S AWESOME, ALL RIGHT? Personally, my take on the subject is that killing Sadeas was completely justified. Sadeas had betrayed the Kholin army and left them for dead on the Shattered Plains, for his own gain. He’d done nothing but work against Dalinar, and Adolin had every reason to believe that their lives were in danger from this man. He’d left them for dead once, and Sadeas straight up says that he’s not going to stop. It was preemptive self-defense, and defense of his father and—hence—the world. Was there a healthy dollop of vengeful wrath thrown in there, too? Absolutely. But to be honest, I don’t blame him, laws or no laws. To quote Syl, “Laws don’t matter; what’s right matters.”
Now, if Adolin were in the real world, and governed by our ethics and moral codes, would I condemn him for his actions? Hard to say. “Preemptive self-defense” is NOT a valid excuse for murder, unless we’re talking sci-fi Minority Report type stuff in which future guilt is assured, but I can’t deny that stories like Dexter in which vigilantes take the law into their own hands have a certain appeal. We don’t know much about Alethi law when it comes to criminal proceedings, other than this in-text reference I found from WoR:
Killing Sadeas now—no matter how much he deserved it—would undermine the very laws and codes Adolin’s father was working so hard to uphold.
So Adolin knew it was wrong. But he felt strongly enough about it to do it anyway. It’s a great ethical and philosophical question—when should personal morals override written laws?
A: I’ll admit, I have a hard time with this one. I’m against murder of the innocent, and I’m for the presumption of innocence. And I’m also for the belief that a legitimate government has the only legitimate mandate to exercise the death penalty. And I’ve been known to say that if Sadeas came back to life like some others we know, I was going to climb into the book and kill him myself. The thing is, the Alethi government is not set up to require or enforce moral behavior from its highprinces. Frankly, Alethi government is totally based on “might makes right” at the top levels, even though they have a somewhat better code of laws and justice below that. (Far from perfect, but let’s not go there right now.) The point is that there’s no legal way to stop Sadeas from doing exactly what he told Adolin he was going to do. He was going to use his position and influence to stab the Kholin family in the back until they were all dead. How do you stop that?
L: Whether or not this is an action worthy of a proto-Radiant or not is an entirely different conversation. There are a lot of theories about whether or not Adolin will eventually walk a Radiant path, and whether or not this action would be a boon or a hindrance to that.
Adolin stood for a moment, staring Sadeas in the eyes, and then something finally snapped.
This line from Words of Radiance in particular is the one I think most people are thinking of when they theorize that he’s heading down a Radiant path. But I don’t think this is evidence of him “Breaking”—not in the way we usually mean when we talk about proto-Radiants, anyway.
A: There’s a WoB that says that the term “snapped” was not used magically.
L: Sometimes a chicken really IS just a chicken, guys, even in a Brandon Sanderson book. (This can be read either as a Goodkind jab or a play on every bird in Roshar being a chicken, take your pick.) But… just for the sake of argument, let’s say Adolin is Broken and a proto-Radiant. Which orders would see this murder as not a problem (perhaps even a plus)?
A: We have a WoB that while some Orders would think he was wrong, others would be fine with it. He specifically said that the Willshapers would be okay with it, but that was in response to a leading question, so I don’t think it means much. I’m not sure the Skybreakers would approve, because they’re all about The Law, not necessarily about justice.
L: He was protecting others. There’s also the fact that his dead Shardblade (Maya) was an Edgedancer’s blade. Adolin certainly seems to embody the ideals we know of so far for them—remembering those who are forgotten, and listening to those who have been ignored.
A: Not every action a person takes necessarily fits the Ideals of their future Order. This was a totally human response to the situation. However, I do (now) believe that if Adolin ever becomes a Radiant, he’ll be an Edgedancer. Okay, that’s mostly because of Maya—I want him to bring her fully back to sapience, and if that means he needs to speak the Edgedancer Ideals, that works for me. His general behavior and graceful athleticism seem to fit well with the historical accounts of Edgedancers. Perhaps a smidge more than the one Edgedancer we’ve met, even?
Quality Quotations
- “We have to assume that this city—our armies—will soon be the only bastion of order left in the world.”
- “Looking for him? You lost your highprince?”
A: Well, for a relatively short chapter, we sure had a lot to talk about! This is partly because we’re busy referencing things from all three books, which may subside as we get deeper into the world again.
L: I just realized that I didn’t use a single meme of gif this week. I must be off my game. I’ll make up for it next week guys, promise.
A: For now, we’re planning to stick with one chapter next week. It’s Dalinar’s first flashback, which has been talked over a lot, but is HUGE in seeing what young Dalinar was like. Just in case we decide there’s not enough material, though, y’all could read chapters 3 and 4. Just in case.
Alice is glad to see everyone here commenting and answering one another’s questions, because wow—she has NOT been on the thread much. Life. If anyone is planning to attend the Emerald City Comic Con, make sure you look up the Dragonsteel booth. Alice and her daughter will be hanging out there on Saturday (March 2, not this week!) with Kara Stewart. Find them!
Lyndsey has been writing at length lately on her website about the lengthy process of trying to get a novel published, and about how her lessons in European longsword are helping to improve her fight scenes. She’s also got two conventions coming up, so she’ll be posting a lot of WIP cosplay photos on social media. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or her website.
Oh wow I must have refreshed at the right time! So many things happening in this chapter…but I love Palona’s reaction to Sadeas’ death most of all! Now to read the article :)
I think you guys are right that Dalinar doesn’t really know how to interact with Renarin. So whenever a concrete thing they share comes along, Dalinar jumps on it. In the Way of Kings, one of their longest interactions involves Dalinar going ‘aha! I also know what it’s like to be a second son. I know what I wanted, so let me give that to Renarin’. It looks like the same thing here, but with their shared status as Knights Radiant.
Sometimes the story needs to remind us in just how bad a shape the Kholin army is. I think we miss that sometimes just because all our main characters are still alive and doing okay. I also just reread the Way of Kings, and I noticed that during Dalinar’s list of dead friends in this chapter, Havar is missing. He was the commander of the rearguard, who (probably) died at the Tower. Later in this book we learn that he was one of Dalinar’s elites, together with Bashin (who is still alive, but who is also a darkeyes, so he only gets to be the huntmaster).
About the Shin invasions, Gavilar later mentions (chapter 19) a Shin name, Shubreth-son-Mashalan next to the Sunmaker and the Hierocracy, as conquerors who became too greedy. So it sounds like he led an invasion, not just that they were invaded.
I also made a list of how often ‘blood of my fathers’ was used as a curse! …and it seems to be Dalinar’s favourite by far. I was curious to see if it was a generational or light-eyes only curse, as basically no one else uses it. It turns out that Moash is the only other person to use it in Way of Kings, but he swears by it, which is slightly different. The only other person who uses it is Adolin, who says it once. So we can’t really draw any conclusions from it. But it will show up again later in this book.
When Dalinar is running with his elites during one of his flashbacks he daydreams about legends of spearmen riding horses which makes me think the Shin were a little bit less peaceful at some point and were in fact the invaders. That’s not really a skill you’d need to practice if you lived in Shinovar unless you planned on fighting people. It does make me wonder about the Honorblades though and what purpose they served.
L: Back in the preview chapters, Havoc picked out an interesting little bit of history. “Shin Invasions!!?” they asked. “Weren’t they supposed to be a peaceful people?”
This is a great question. I couldn’t find anything indicating that the Shin were ever on the offensive, which makes me wonder if we misread that little bit and what was actually meant was that other countries were invading them.
– I have my own pet theory for why the peaceful Shin invaded. They self appointed themselves guardians of the Honorblades. Then the Recreance happened and dumped thousands of plates and blades on the world. And at some unspecified point of time in History, probably more recent than the Recreance, only because pre-Recreance history is a lot shakier, the Shin invaded, and the majority of the plates and blades disappeared. It is Coincidental, and a tenuous correlation at best. But I think the Shin invaded to capture as many sets of Shardblade and Shardplate as possible and make sure they were never used, like the Honorblades.
Anyone else who had them would have used them, but not the Shin. They stockpiled them waiting for the Herald’s or something to return. Which may be why it was such a big deal that Szeth was claiming the Radiants had returned, so much so that they declared him Truthless and swept him under the rug rather than acknowledge the truth and face the fact that they may have to open the stockpile and arm the world with blade that artifabrians can allow to be bonded now.
Just my thought. The Shin invasions were for shardblades, they have them all.
About Adolin. One of the themes in Shadows of Self was that strong emotions can push you into ignoring how you would normally behave. Maybe this is further exploration of that?
4 – I think that is an interesting theory. I am looking forward to learning more about the Shin during Szeth’s book, especially why his revelation was serious enough for him to be named Truthless.
I am in the camp believing the strata will be stormlight conduits – different shades/colors for different gemstones.
I was disappointed in this chapter when Dalinar thought about everyone he was with (the “steady Adolin and impenetrable Renarin” paragraph) and didn’t think of Shallan. It seems like an odd omission to me. We see a lot of what Shallan thinks of Kaladin and Dalinar in her sections, and we see what Kaladin thinks of Dalinar and Shallan, and we see Dalinar thinking of Kaladin at several locations, but I don’t recall Dalinar considering Shallan very often. I wonder what he thinks of her as a Radiant, a person, and as a match for his son as their betrothal solidifies. It seems odd that he wouldn’t consider these things, especially since I think I remember him pondering Adolin’s bad luck with women in The Way of Kings. I wonder if he, like Jasnah later, is unimpressed with her perceived bad attitude or if he doesn’t see that since he does not have a history of interaction with the Shallan of the earlier books. Certainly he is grateful for her help banishing Re-Shephir but even when he considers that I don’t remember much more than him thinking she was resting after the confrontation. I am hoping that he will mull over their marriage in the next book and show us his thoughts.
@2 I agree and to expand even further, my aunt, uncle, and two cousins from my mother’s side pretty much embody what i feel is the dalinar, evi, adolin, renarin dynamic. My aunt is very loud spoken, gregarious, funny, and a blast to spend time with. Her husband is quiet, very sweet, caring, and very very intelligent. One son is the “jock”, easy going, personable, just about the spitting image of my aunt. The two of them are super close, get along, and have numerous things to bond over. Conversely the other son is very quiet, reserved, is on the autistic spectrum, has difficulty communicating with people, and is very very intelligent. Once again just about the spitting image of his father. I talked with my aunt once about family, and she said how it was difficult with both sons growing up, to recognize the bond and shared interests with one son, but not to marginalize the other. That it was ok that they tended to pair off the way they did, but at the same time to still show love and interest, even when you couldn’t understand where the other child was coming from. I think that is exactly what Dalinar is dealing with. It is easy for him to talk with Adolin. They have shared interests. They have shared world views. Bonding is natural. With Renarin it is not. Dalinar has to actively try with Renarin, while the whole time feeling like he is messing up somehow. This I feel is also compounded with the loss of Evi. My younger cousin has his father to bond with. That understands him, and is very alike. When he second guesses himself, or feels weird, different or lost, he has his father to look to. To know there isn’t something wrong with him and that it can be good to be the way he is, and be happy as my uncle is with his life. My aunt and uncle are wonderful together and balance each other incredibly. Renarin did not and does not have that. He lost his mother young. The parent he could have gotten close with and identified with was gone. The closest he had was Navani and Jasnah thankfully, but it still wasn’t quite enough I think. This realization has caused me to truly sympathize with Renarin, and love the character all the more as he continues to go through the fear, uncertainty, and self recrimination largely alone.
Even though Adolin came at his choice from a place of emotion, I think it’s justifiable. Count me as part of Palona’s camp on this one.
I hadn’t picked up the similarity between the Windblades and Urithru while reading. This is exactly the kind of stuff I come to these rereads for.
I wonder how Lift calling Wyndle her “pet Voidbringer” to annoy him (and eventually saying he might not be) fits with general beliefs about Voidbringers.
I was surprised by Lopen’s Cockney (I’m guessing?) accent in the commercial audiobook.
Even by the end of the book, we have very little for comparison; just a few glimpses of the Skybreaker training.
I might be mistaking, since I don’t have my book with me ATM, but didn’t Red or Vathah (can’t remember, which one) manifest some ability to use Stormlight in Kholinar? So, Lightweaver squires?
@9 Maybe this is a carry over from the Mistborn series. As Scadrial is pretty earth like Brandon specifically called upon accents that we know on earth.
“I intentionally used themes that make it an Earth parallel, which is different from my other worlds. So you can have a character who kind of has a light Cockney accent or something like that, but it’s not our world so it can’t exactly mimic that accent.”
Fun fact, he has also said that in world characters would pronounce Vin and Kelsier with a French accent, like Kel-see-yay.
Michael Kramer is the narrator for both Mistborn and Stormlight Archive, so maybe he drew inspiration from Wayne’s accent!
@10 It was Vathah. He got startled and instinctively made an illusion around himself of someone else. But forgot to do the back of his head.
@10 and 12. There has also been some discussion around whether Gaz will become a full lightweaver rather than a squire. Reasons being that he sees things in his peripheral vision in his damaged eye (i.e. a cryptic) and the fact that he is probably ‘broken’ enough to attract a spren to bind to him :)
Theory I started putting together what if the wind blades and urithero are crashed or landed ships that the humans brought with them?
@14 Hmmm I really liked that when I first read it…but judging by the picture it doesn’t really look like a ship. And it has some really specific features that only would have been designed for Roshar. For example, the fact that it sits tall enough to be above high storms, or that it runs on fabrials.
What things made you think they might be ships? It would be awesome if they were!!
@9: (facepalm) You’re totally right, Lift does call Wyndle a Voidbringer. Well, there goes that theory, for some reason she totally slipped my mind. Maybe the common people just view them as amorphous boogeymen whereas the upper class have more of an academic concept of what really happened…
@10 and 12: I had totally forgotten that (surprise surprise) and I suspect Alice had too, so thank you for reminding us!
@14 Damn. That’s… an interesting theory. I have to say I had never considered this. I’ll be on the lookout for WoBs or clues throughout OB now.
@15 I’m pretty sure they had spren on braise, and they needed someway for their ships to fly and travel in a vacuum. I feel like the wind blades we’re a crashed ship or part of one while urithero was one that saw the conditions and landed above them.
The only thing I can’t account for is the gates but they may have been built later.
Re. Sadeas, they have him cold on treason, murder, attempted murder (hundreds of counts of those latter), conspiracy to commit treason, conspiracy to commit murder, fraud, conspiracy to commit fraud, and who knows what else. What they don’t have is a coherent and principled legal system. The killing was entirely justified.
Although now that I think of it we don’t know if their was investiture on braise. Although they would need some kind of power to surgebind to destroy their planet which is what forced them to roshar.
Butthe gates could have come from the ships as a way of transporting between ships while flying
I’m fascinated by the potential of Adolin’s Deadeye cultivationspren eventually regaining sapience. Don’t forget one of the cultivationspren’s Surges is Regrowth, it could be a factor!
If somebody uses Ishar’s Honorblade, what Surgebinding powers would he/she have access to? I guess what I am asking is how different those Surges would be than what Dalinar manifests. I think that his surges are influenced by his bonding of the splinter/spren-like avitar of Honor. Further, Dalinar is the first Bondsmith to have bonded the Stormfather since Honor was killed and his influence splintered. If I had to guess, a holder of Ishtar’s Honorblade will not have the ability to create Honor’s Perpendicularity.
Alice and Lyndsey. I think Renarin’s unease has way more to do with the fact that he thinks hhe is more of a Voidbringer than a Knight Radiant. I think at this point, he is starting to realize that his powers (due to Glys corruption) are not the same Surgebinding as a non-corrupted Truthwatcher. I think he fears having to practice his powers and see more visions. By the end of OB (especially after Jasnah does not kill him), he accepts that even though GLys was corrupted, Renarin is not a Voidbringer. He can still be a Knight Radiant.
The drawing of Urithiru looks like a giant wedding cake.
Re Shin and spren. I do think there is some connection between Shin and spren. When the spren leading the band of parshmen Kaladin immerses himself with appears before him, the spren (to Kaladin’s eyes) looks Shin like in appearance. The spren also does something that allows the spren to be connected to stone when the spren is walking/floating around Kaladin. What that connection is, I have no idea.
I wanted to save my next thought until we got to a chapter where Adolin or Syl discuss or show some sign of their like of fashion. However, given that Oscar season is upon us and we may not get to such a chapter until after the Oscars come and go, I wanted to propose something. Actually, it is closer to me begging. Brandon has said repeatedly that the Cosmere has no interaction with Earth. I would like him to break that rule for one time and create a specific scene where Hollywood’s elite would intereact with some members of the SA world.
Specifically, Brandon should write a short story where Adolin is part of E! Network’s coverage of the stars walking the red carpet before the Oscars. Adolin’s co-host would be the late Joan Rivers. Syl would be the special correspondent who would change her form to mirror what the stars wore. Adolin and Joan could ask Syl to slightly change the dress or suit to show what it would look like when they offered alterations.
If Brandon does not want to create such a scene, then perhaps the creative folks at Jordancon can use this premise as the basis for one of their skits.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Re: Shin Invasion – My guess is that most people feel like Brandon would just RAFO any question about that history. Now, if we don’t get anything about the history during Szeth’s book – I would expect more questions to be asked.
Re: People’s thoughts about the Desolations
Considering the Desolations and the Voidbringers are part of the Vorin church’s teaching, my thought is people give them as much weight and thought about the truth, as modern people give to thinking about Noah’s Arch, the Tower of Babel, or the Trojan War. We now know that all of these stories are rooted into a real truth, but the details are changed in the telling and the mythology. And some people believe one particular telling of the story more than others. But since, there WERE no Voidbringers around, you could just use them like to boggy-man to scare your children into good behavior. Now that there ARE Voidbringers around, much will change in what people think and believe about the Desolations.
Re: Sadas-
I still want to call his killing a justified homicide. Justice for the 5000 men he caused to die at the Tower. Adolin seemed to be thinking about those men’s death as equal to the problems Sadas was causing Dalinar. Left to have is way Sadas would have killed the remaining Kholin men.
On the Wind blades and Urithiru strata being the same, I noticed the same thing just yesterday while listening to part 3. I hope they do carry power around, that would be awesome. I’m not sold on them being space ships though.
@@.-@ jweaver13, I have also thought that the Shin have all the shardblades. There were way too many abandoned to account for all the ones that are still around, especially in the west near Shinovar if Feverstone Keep really is out there. The literal addition doesn’t add up.
Palona is very much right here-good riddance to Sadeas. And Adolin is completely justified; if not for Kaladin and Bridge 4 he and Dalinar and even more of their army wouldn’t have made it away from the Tower. Plus it opens the way for Amaram to show his true colors
I LOVE Adolin. And he shines in Oathbringer!!! He is the most underestimated character in Stormlight. He never ever pitied himself that he isn’t becoming a radiant too inspite everyone around him it seems. He sees what he can do and goes and gets it done. He also was the glue in Shadesmar when our two Radiants were having their own existential crises. Shadolin FTW!!!!!!
@@@@@23. stormlightchick
That would explain why all of the nation nearest to the shin have the least shards and the ones farther away have more shards. Once the shin are convinced that they are wrong, what side will they take as it has already mentioned that odiums spren look like the shin.
I really wonder what the shin stone shammons reaction to szeth’s return will be. (I assume they’re the ones to banish him)
may be the shin are the remnants of the humans/voidbringers that can after the first humans came to rosar and they were the ones who forced the other humans to break their promise to the parseni ancestors.
I am very partial on how to read the Dalinar/Renarin relationship. Within the previous books, I read nothing else but love, care, over-protection and a given dose of laxism. My initial thoughts had been Dalinar was being over-indulgent towards Renarin because of his sickness. After reading OB, it seems the behavior is more readily explained by Dalinar trying to over-compensate for not having paid any attention to Renarin grown up. My impressions were he “saw” him for the very first time during the “bottle scene”. How it evolved pass this moment, I think it is hard to conclude with the narrative we had.
Still, we do see Dalinar make leaps and effort to support Renarin. No matter how he might have been in the past, his present-day self seems to genuinely want his youngest son to grown into the man he can be which is a sharp contrast with him wanting Adolin to be the man he wants him to be. So while Dalinar’s relationship with Renarin, despite an off-start, seems to have grown into a more healthy one, his relationship with Adolin, despite some good years, turned to be one focusing on expectations and duty. Dalinar’s pride in Adolin seems to only come at times where his son shows the inclination to be the man he has decided he should be whereas with Renarin, it just seems to come when his son tries to finally take his place.
There has been some amount of discussion as to whether or not Dalinar could accept the man Adolin seems to have decided to be: his last sentence indicates he doesn’t seem to care, but I find it hard to believe Dalinar would just change his behavior, on the spot, after having endorsing it for 23 years.
This being said, I am partial over Adolin murdering Sadeas: if Sadeas did deserve to die, if Adolin did have sufficient, in-world, reasons to take action, the fact it was hidden, not dealt with has caused the ruin of one princedom. As a reader, I did not find it satisfying Adolin did not have to face the consequences of his actions. We do not know how much of a nuisance Sadeas would have been, had he not die, but we do know his death caused his former princedom to rebel and to fall prey to Odium. Hence, Adolin’s little stunt had for more consequences than just Torol dying: many soldiers ended up dying because of it. Of course, it wasn’t just it, but the lack of culprit, the lack of interest within the culprit and Dalinar’s overall behavior with respect to it. Still, I didn’t find it satisfying, once the secret is finally out, no one is seeing fit to state how costly it has been. Even Adolin is not acknowledging his hand into the later carnage.
On the matter of whether or not Adolin will become a Radiant, my personal impressions are a majority of readers are against it. Some just don’t like the idea, finding one “normal unbroken” character is welcome within the narrative. Some just don’t believe it will happen as they cannot view Adolin within any given orders, the Edgedancers least of all. Some are arguing Adolin is not broken and since his ordeal did not serve to break him, he many never break down enough, not just for the Nahel Bond, but for the whole narrative to feel deserved. Some feel the character has extended his welcome and no longer has a purpose within the narrative and should instead die to offer one “shock-moment”.
And yeah, some do like the idea, but I personally find it hard to root for one option over the other. Hence, I have absolutely no idea which speculation I wish to support.
AndrewHB @21, re the Oscar coverage: That would be something … weird and awesome at the same time, I suppose. But if Edna Mode can present the Oscars, why wouldn’t Adolin be allowed to at least discuss the clothes? :)
Why do all of the people who train with Kaladin have to become Windrunners? It would make more sense if some of the people who happened to be bridgemen were a better fit for a different order.
Dalinar might be too used to Adolin changing girlfriends all the time to pay much attention to who he is dating at the moment, even if she is a Radiant.
@28 like dalinar’s story about wrapping the belt three times, many people that trained under that teacher wrapped the belt three times. Does that mean every single one did? Nope, but enough to be significant. Why do I reference that story? Because all the bridgemen are being trained under Kaladin, or under his men, so how Kaladin views fighting, speeches and views on protection will trickle down to the men. Which will cause them to think that way more often. That in turn would attract honorspren because they are espousing the ideals that windrunners represent. So does every single bridgeman have to end up a windrunner? Nope, but it does mean 90 percent and up probably will.
I have 2 takeaways from this chapter, that are somewhat related.
The first is that Dalinar, while being proficient as a military leader and tactician, he has a lot to learn on how to take advantage of incorporating non-military resources into his planning. He is quick to dole out responsibilities to the Highprinces and Adolin, but Shallan and Renarin seem to be an after thought (and only when it was pointed out to him by Renarin). Dalinar needs to broaden his thinking and tactics to utilize all resources in his planning.
The second, as touched upon above, is the idea of slavery. Now that most of the slave labour has vanished, I wonder how that will impact how slavery will be dealt with overall moving forward. My initial thought was that we could see more humans made slaves to compensate, whether justly or not, to help fill the void. Do we see crimes that did not lead to slavery before start helping to swell the slavery ranks? Or does someone like Dalinar force the freeing of all slaves, and the end of slavery as a whole, as a condition of being in his alliance? Turning all abled bodied slaves into military personal, and those not fit for duty, are perhaps relegated to the lowest cast levels to do some of the more menial tasks (ie: water fetching). While their lives may not be much better overall (such a low rank would make them virtual slaves), they would have some freedom and the ability to earn a living.
@21 “I think Renarin’s unease has way more to do with the fact that he thinks hhe is more of a Voidbringer than a Knight Radiant.”
I dunno, Andrew. I mean, what reason would he have to even consider that at this point? No one knows exactly what Truthwatchers could do, so why would he think that Glys was corrupted? (If this was answered at the end of the book I apologize, as I have said a million times, my memory is awful.)
@28 “Dalinar might be too used to Adolin changing girlfriends all the time to pay much attention to who he is dating at the moment, even if she is a Radiant.”
(snort) That’s actually a really good explanation. “Oh jeez, another one…”
@30 “Or does someone like Dalinar force the freeing of all slaves, and the end of slavery as a whole, as a condition of being in his alliance?”
I am Dalinar Kholin, Breaker of Chains, Bonder of Stormfathers, Knight Radiant. You will bend the knee. ;)
@31, the primary vorin belief is that seeing the future is of the voidbringers and is evil. Renarin has known since the Way of Kings that he sees the future. So it would stand to reason that he would assume he is like the voidbringers or evil, despite not understanding what is happening to him.
Sorry I mean since Words of Radiance
Gepeto @26. I do not think it fair to lay the death of soldiers who died at the Battle of Thaylen City at Adolin’s feet because he killed Sadeas. There is no reasonable causation between the two events. First, nobody, including the Fused, believed it was possible for Sadeas’ soldiers on mass to succumb to Odium’s influence and attack Dalinar and his forces. Second, there is no guarantee that had Sadeas lived, the same result would not have happened. Odium could have corrupted Sadeas. He had a lot of reason to oppose Dalinar. Even if Sadeas would not have gone that far, Odium could still have turned all of Sadeas’ soldiers through his corruption of Amaram. Amaram would still have been high marshal of the troops. As such, it is likely they would have gone over to Odium’s side even had Adolin not killed Sadeas.
Nevertheless, I do agree with you that I do not think Adolin suffered enough consequences due to the murder. Further, we agree that Brandon did not, from a literary perspective, handle the results of the death adequately. Although, I suspect we differ in our reasons as to why how Brandon wrote that plot line failed.
Thanks for reading mu musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@21 The Adolin fashion commentary idea is incredible.
Re: consequences for Adolin’s murder of Sadeas – does this chapter show that it was somewhat logical for Adolin to not suffer any consequences? Outside of Ialai and Sadeas’ army, everyone was like ‘good riddance, move on.’ I get the feeling that even if they found Adolin was the murderer at the start, he wouldn’t have suffered much punishment at all. Maybe this is wishful thinking on my part since I’m a big fan of Adolin and I felt Sadeas’ time had come. I certainly didn’t want any more of his scheming with a Desolation coming and already enough scheming with the Ghostbloods, the Diagram, and the Sons of Honor around.
Furthermore, instead of ‘if Adolin hadn’t killed Sadeas, his army would still be corrupted by Odium,’ I think that if Sadeas had lived, Dalinar would have succumbed to Odium and become his champion. Imagine Dalinar dealing with his memories returning and falling off the wagon, and Sadeas using that to break the Coalition (even before Taravangian did) and take out Dalinar, or Sadeas using Dalinar’s weakness to target his family in some way (T never used his family against him, something Sadeas did without hesitation) – that extra pressure point would probably have been enough for Odium to turn him.
I’m sure glad Sadeas is gone. Although Ialai could really return to haunt them.
@@@@@7 Scath
Very true, but I think Renarin and Adolin have traits from both their parents. I actually think Adolin inherited a lot of his temperament from his mother, and we can see that Dalinar had a lot more trouble connecting to him (because of the guilt) before he lost his memories of Evi. But overall I agree.
Something else that interested me about Evi is that she’s not really interested in reading. Dalinar mentions that she prefers meditation. She’s clearly not stupid, but she doesn’t really enjoy academics. At the same time, basically all of Renarin’s family members seem to push him towards the Ardentia, because ‘well, you’re not good at fighting, so you must enjoy studying, right?’. I wonder if that’s part of why Dalinar feels like he’s mistepping somehow. He hasn’t quite realized that Renarin absolutely doesn’t want to join the Ardentia, even if he has accepted that apparently Renarin wants to fight. He still thinks at points in tWoK (and I think WoR as well) that it would just be easier if Renarin became an Ardent.
This also means that even though Renarin had Navani and Jasnah to support him, they were also pushing for him to go to a career he didn’t want to go, which probably felt very lonely.
And yes, Renarin’s journey to find a unique path for himself in a place where everything is so binary is very easy to sympathize with. I really hope he succeeds.
@@@@@ 14 fulgriim, @@@@@15 light_makes_shadow
Unfortunately, we definitely know Urithiru is not a spaceship:
JoeST
Is Urithiru a spaceship?
Brandon Sanderson
It is not, no, good question. I’ve never been asked that before. It’s very Sim City, though.
JoeST
It’s a new theory, they’re thinking, is it one of the floating cities from–
Brandon Sanderson
From Ashyn, yeah. Boy, that would be hard, it is so big. But, I suppose, magic, you know. But no, it is not…
The SimCity comment is still very interesting though. As are some of Jasnah’s notes in the Way of Kings that it wasn’t built by human hands, and the Knights Radiant ‘asked that it be placed westward, in the place closest to Honor.’. Who did they ask, and why is that mountain close to Honor I wonder..
@@@@@31 Lyndsey Luther
Renarin seems to consider himself, at best, a fraudulent Knight Radiant:
‘Renarin Kholin knew he wasn’t actually a Knight Radiant. Glys had once been a different kind of spren, but something had changed him, corrupted him. Glys didn’t remember that very well; it had happened before they had formed their bond. Now, neither knew what they’d become.’
It’s on page 1120-1121 of the hardcover, buried somewhere deep in the avalanche :). We don’t know when he figured it out exactly, but I’m guessing the visions of the future were part of it, like Scath said.
Elle @36
I was about to go looking for that quote, thanks for saving me a trip into the black hole!!! ;-)
fulgriim @17
Certainly not a big deal (I switch ’em up too), but it’s Ashyn, not Braize.
@28: About Dalinar and Shallan, Shallan does note how cold and unsympathetic Dalinar’s behavior is towards her. I never felt he was doing it on purpose, I just thought he naturally was a cold, distant and authoritative figure. Though, I do think Shallan does note the one time where Dalinar seemed to acknowledge her more fully. So, I don’t know. Maybe there is more, but maybe it’s just how Dalinar is.
As for Adolin changing girlfriends too often, the narrative of WoK suggest Dalinar didn’t pay any attention to who his son was dating until then. The narrative of WoR suggests Dalinar does notice Adolin seemed more fond of Shallan. She is also one of the few Radiants… I have a hard time believing his behavior towards her is because she’s just “yet another girl”.
@30: I agree with you about Dalinar struggling to manage his none-fighting forces. I always felt his “orders” to Shallan/Renarin basically allowed them to be idle nearly all day. We do see, in Shallan’s POV, she does spend very little time actually studying, preferring doing…. often not much the rest of the time. I find it at odd with Adolin’s statement soldiers should be left idle: I think the same should have probably applied to Shallan/Renarin.
@34: There is no way to know if the outcome would have been more positive or more negative had Sadeas not been killed. My impressions of Odium were he fed on people’s negative emotions: guilt and anger being chosen ones. The Sadeas soldiers betrayed their country because they were angry at: 1) their Highprince being dead and no culprit being found, 2) Dalinar having ordered them the tedious, demeaning task of cleaning Thaylenar, 3) thinking Dalinar must have been behind Torol being murdered. Odium fed on those feelings and offered them validation: it is alright to be angry at Dalinar, it is alright to want to fight him, your every feeling is totally justified.
Of course, Adolin did not cause the soldiers to make this decision, but he did cause the badly handled situation which led to it. He also refused to admit his guilt which, had he done so, might have led to another conclusion. He did create a mess and a political void which ended being the perfect way for Odium to infiltrate itself within Alethkar. There is no telling if Amaram, without the need to be a strong Highprince then met with the refusal of the Kholins to even hear him out (an injustice to his eyes as Dalinar has done far worst and he knows it), would have turned to Odium. Things might not have escalated as they did.
Adolin did cause a mess highlighting the removal of one man does not solve all issues, not if you don’t have a plan to mitigate the consequences, which he didn’t. The subsequent events are more or less on his hands: I was surprised he didn’t feel any guilt towards what later happened. A whole princedom has betrayed them because they thought Dalinar killed their Highprince and Adolin feels nothing? Either his character is much darker then we thought he was or this is a hole within the narrative.
Just like you, the overall narrative arc was a miss for me as a reader. I felt the previous narrative had opened the door for an interesting arc where Dalinar and Adolin would be force to evaluate their respective actions. Adolin’s character was sitting at a cross-roads: speculative theories were numerous, most were interesting. Instead, the arc was used as plot device to introduce Shallan hunting Re-Shephir and, later, Kaladin fighting Amaram. The bigger implications of Adolin’s actions were glossed over. As for his character, I am so ambivalent over him. While it is true some readers loved Adolin and his “I will never break down, no matter what happens, I shall be successful attitude”, but the entire narrative came across as too simplistic to me, a tad bland and border-lining on “Mary-Sue-ishness”.The character now feels more like a plot device than ever.
So all in all, yeah, I wasn’t satisfied with how Brandon chose to handle it.
@35: I think Adolin’s entire narrative has many holes. For instance, even if he does not feel any guilt, why isn’t he worried about being found out? Why isn’t he ever wondering if he ought to speak up or not? Why isn’t he commenting on what happens? Why doesn’t he feel responsible? There are several very logical thoughts which are missing from Adolin just as his entirely normal behavior after hiding something as BIG as this is really… odd. It shows no outward mark, it doesn’t affect him in any visible way. It would have never happened, Adolin’s character would have been written in the exact same manner. To me, this is where the narrative went wrong: have anyone else kill Sadeas and the story unfolds in the exact same manner. Hence, the climax, the tension, the cliff-hanger: it was ultimately useless and a big Red Herring.
@36: I always took in Adolin took more after Evi than Dalinar. He however idolizes his father, so he yearns to be exactly what Dalinar wants him to be. I can’t say about Renarin though.
As doe the Ardentia thing, Renarin comments on it during Rock’s chapters. He says everyone pushed him towards it because he was a brilliant kid, good at his studies and his numbers. He was good at the academics, but he turned it into a weakness because he thought he needed to be a soldier, like Adolin, for his father to pay him any attention. The narrative however did highlight Renarin was gifted with learning. Rock is the one to highlight to Renarin it is foolish for him to try to be something he is not while rejecting something he is really good at. After this talk, Renarin becomes a scholar.
Thanks Alice and Lyndsey,
I like the title chapter (and the character who actually utters the phrase) and echo the sentiment!
Re: Renarin and Dalinar – I read Renarin’s reluctance to take on the responsibility his father has given him related more to Renarin’s awareness that he’s not a traditional Knight Radiant (and may even be a Voidbringer), as much as his reluctance to be a leader to future Radiants.
Re: Bridge Four’s “squireness” limitations: I remember that conversation. Lyndsey or Alice – did any of the beta readers bring up the possible discrepancy between the explanation and Lopen’s use of Stormlight at the end of WoR? Either the timeline is off, Lopen is a special case, or the explanation that we’re given in book may be what the scholars in-book believe, but may be factually incorrect, cosmere-wise (like how most Scadrians thought there were only 10 metals in Mistborn, until they found out differently).
As for Orders with squires, so far we’ve seen squires associated with: Windrunners, Dustbringers (via flashback), Skybreakers and Lightweavers (like @10 & @12 mention)
Re: Adolin – I know a number of us have talked this one nearly to death in the WoR reread. I maintain that it was murder (*warm-blooded* murder), but I have no major issues with Adolin doing it. As far as whether/not a spren would approve: a) will spren be able to scrutinize every previous action of a potential bondmate before they started to bond said mate; and b) if the potential bondmate lived/is living a life according to the spren’s “code” with the exception of 1 or 2 actions, does that automatically exclude that potential bondmate from further consideration? In other words: is Maya even aware that Adolin murdered Sadeas, and will she let that one action override all of the positive Edgedancer qualities that Adolin brings to the table?
Elle@2 – I thought OB had mentioned the Shin conqueror, so thanks for the recall! Clearly there is a lot more to the Shin than we have seen, to date. Maybe Szeth’s book (or the back 5 books) will focus more on the Shin.
Jweaver13@@.-@ – I like the theory about the Shin invasions being linked to the claiming of Shardblade and Plate. My theory regarding the missing Plate/Blades is that they were quietly collected by the Skybreakers and are secured in the various hidden stockpiles and caches Nale takes the Skybreakers to in Part 4 of OB.
porphyrogenitus@18 – I think most of those counts would not be considered as such from the Alethi perspective. Any evidence for murder and attempted murder would all be considered related to the battlefield and acceptable war tactics and actions. I am not aware of hard evidence for treason or conspiracy to commit treason (good luck getting Ialai to testify that they were conspiring to overthrow the King). What is the fraud and conspiracy to commit fraud?
gepeto@26 – Re: Adolin becoming a Radiant, I disagree that a majority of readers are against it. Adolin becoming a Radiant has been a popular theory for years. As for post OB, there are a number of theories about if/when/how/why Adolin will/not become a Radiant, a few (mostly of the more negative variety) of which you mention. Personally, I like the theories that suggest he will revive Maya and/or become Radiant, but ultimately I look forward to how Brandon decides to tell the story of Adolin and Maya.
Gaz@35 – excellent point about Sadeas likely destabilizing the coalition, and attacking Dalinar via his family, if he had survived. Narratively speaking, Sadeas had to die; Oathbringer would likely not have unfolded the way it did if Sadeas still lived.
@38 Gepeto
I struggled a bit with how to word my comment, as we do indeed see that Renarin was good at his studies, and he’s clearly insightful and intelligent. I specifically mentioned academics, similar to what Jasnah does, as something I don’t think he enjoys (or at least something he doesn’t want to be limited to). Whenever we see him show interest in things, it’s the fabrials, Urithiru, the gemstone wall, or things with a much more practical application. He joins his father’s strategy meetings as well, and I think those things interest him more.
He might simply be afraid that if he does become an ardent, he will get pushed into a corner, but he could also be good at maths and other studies without necessarily enjoying it. On the whole, I think that one of his defining characteritics is that is he wants to help. Personally. Right now. And ardents don’t really get to do that.
I think that Renarin, after his talk with Rock starts to make an attempt at finding his own middle path between this academic side, and the militaristic side (these two paths basically being the only options for someone of his rank, other than becoming a city lord somewhere).
@40 KiManiak
Yeah, the Shin are very interesting. But I think we have to wait until at least book 5 to learn more :(. I wonder how this story would have gone if book 3 had remained as Szeth’s book.
@39: Good explanation about Renarin. I had not think of it, but it does make a lot of sense. Though reality may be a combination of various factors, including this one.
Does Maya know about Sadeas? I think the question should perhaps be, how much conscience does Maya have when she isn’t within her physical Blade form? In other words, can a dead-eye have any level of awareness of what is happening within the physical realm when she/he is not being summoned? We do know dead-spren do retain some dim conscience of the physical realm (we see it with Oathbringer), but does it require for the dead-spren to be bonded and called upon?
Considering the fact Adolin did not summon Maya when he murdered Sadeas, I would argue there is a strong chance she just doesn’t know.
@40: While I do agree Adolin becoming a Radiant has been a theory for years, I can’t say I have been reading a lot of support for it since OB’s release. Mind, this isn’t to say there is no support, but I didn’t get the feeling it was widely popular. My impressions may be wrong, I cannot be everywhere all at once. Let’s say I read a lot of negative comments on it, I have read positive too, but my perception is Adolin as a Radiant is less popular now than it was prior to OB’s release, oddly enough.
I would personally love for Adolin to revive Maya and I would love from Brandon to write this story, but I fear it will be yet another Red Herring and yet another plot device for another arc not involving Adolin at all.
@41: About Jasnah and Renarin, I read an interesting commentary yesterday. Someone argued Jasnah might be on the spectrum too which would explain why she gets along nicely with Renarin. Her cold-minded attitude, her potential difficulties at reading emotions and her “lunacy”, it was argued may be she has autism too. Admittedly, I have little argument in favor or disfavor of the theory, but I thought it was interesting enough to share and see what others think of it.
I agree Renarin seems to be on his way to find his way somewhere in the middle.
Just to note: I am not the Carl Alice refers to in the article. I’m not a Sanderson beta reader, just a guy with a relatively common name.
Alice writes, “And I’ve been known to say that if Sadeas came back to life like some others we know, I was going to climb into the book and kill him myself.”
Of course Lyn is already in the books. I can just imagine writing to Brandon Sanderson, “Lyn the Scout assassinates Torol Sadeas,” as if playing an RPG. He’s a gamer, too, he’d appreciate it. Maybe include a die roll for emphasis (“Natural 20!”).
so this a theory on jasnah that i had posted elsewhere so i will just copy paste it here. 90 percent of it is conjecture/speculation, but i think it would be awesome if i was right :)
So there’s not much concrete evidence to prove this but with what little tidbits we have, I THINK I know what jasnah suffered from as a child. The book references a dark room and screaming. Jasnah also acts very paranoid, constantly making sure to watch everyone, have her back to a wall, pick a room that’s small but surrounded as well as stuffing the vents to prevent intrusion. So the idea of schizophrenia popped into my head. That might also be why she reacts the way she did the first time she saw ivory. She might have been doubting herself because of schizophrenic hallucinations and learned to cope with brain exercises/logic. I watched a documentary once (yes immediately means I’m an expert. Total sarcasm lol) where a man who suffered from schizophrenia would see a demon, be scared/freaked out but with the help of medication, he would continue to reinforce in his mind that demons aren’t real, and used rational thought to try to assert reality from hallucination. Now it could be said the paranoia is well founded as the ghostbloods want her dead but the little tidbits here and there make me feel like the paranoia isn’t new. Like I said, next to no solid evidence that could actually lends this to be true. All conjecture but I figured I’d just put it out there.
People were talking about the voidbringers and wondering what the common people think. I know some place Kal talks about the Ardents coming around every year of so and making certain that folks are observing their calling, in both the small town and in Army camps. (He notes not for Bridgemen.) At the end of chapter seven in Oathbringer as Kaladin is getting ready to depart from his native village, he could hear whispers of voidbringers and desolation. He decides to give them some additional information, in his role as a radiant. He tells them that High Prince Dalinar Kholin has refounded the Knight’s Radiant and they will not fail people this time. His small speech had mixed results. But you get the impression that they each have heard something before, even if it was only nursery rhymes and bedtime scary tales.
Great discussion so far. Many of my thoughts have already been echoed by others. A few additional thoughts.
Adolin’s comment that “you couldn’t just make slaves of men for no reason” struck me as such an ironic, naive thing to say given all that we know about the Alethi relationship to slaves. Even talking with Kal and Bridge Four, does he really not know about what is really going on with slavery?
When Dalinar is described as being a “connoisseur of death” it struck an odd chord with me. I usually reserve that word for someone who loves and appreciates the subject, not just someone who is an expert. I guess since we now know his past this could make sense, but when I first read it I did not know much about his bloody history, so this seemed to be at odds with the Dalinar that I thought I knew. Even reading it now, it strikes me as an odd way to describe it.
Dalinar notes that Khal kept his wounds quiet while ensuring that others were taken to safety. As I think back to the description of the Alethi conquests, it strikes me that this is not the sort of thing that the typical Alethi soldier would do. I certainly can’t imagine anyone from Sadeas’s army doing that. I wondered if Dalinar’s soldiers were always this noble, or if they had been undergoing a transformation along with Dalinar.
I tend to agree with Gepeto @26 and @38. I was surprised at the antipathy expressed by just about everyone regarding Sadeas’ death. I was expecting Adolin to face more serious, immediate repercussions when his role was finally uncovered. I think that it did precipitate the chain reaction (or at least Odium used it as leverage) that led to the mass turning of Sadeas’ soldiers, so it definiately had Consequences and Weight…just none of the ones I was expecting. I had thought that Adolin’s standing as High Prince and his relationship to his Father and perhaps any would-be nahel bonds would have been more severely impacted.
Re strata in Urithiru, I am sensitive to any mention of those as I suspect that this will prove to be Important, as many have noted. As I’ve mentioned before, I’m suspicious of a third type of investiture lurking in the shadows. Tien was always able to notice strata in otherwise mundane rocks and they had a profound effect on Kaladin.
I took note of the way Dalinar took great liberties in appointing the other Highprinces to their new roles. He clearly begins, uncounsciously perhaps, usurping the authority of the King.
I also took note that in this chapter the scope of the directive to “Unite them” began to broaden for Dalinar from uniting Alethkar to uniting all of Roshar.
Re Shin invasions, I really like the theory of jweaver13 @@.-@. Seem pretty plausible. You wonder if the Stone Shamans saw themselves as Stewards awaiting the return of the Heralds, much like Denethor in LOTR. In both cases, perhaps they were unwilling to accept that their Stewardship had been fulfilled.
#46. Izzos: Actually Dalinar did not take great liberties with assigning tasks to the other High Princes, while they were sheltered at Urithiru. He and Elhokar had agreed that Urithiru was his area, although they had said that he might need to tell Elhokar what was needed and have him tell the rest of the high princes. But Elhokar is not available. So Dalinar forged ahead.
I knew that the Wind blades of Kholinar had multicolored strata, just like the Tower of Urithiru. You will find a description in chapter 60, page 604 by Kaladin’s first impression. I think that it is an indicator of a fabrial device of some kind.
It’s mentioned a few times about the old magic the most prominent being the nightwatcher, but since it was a planet originally created by andolisium. There could definitely be another type of powers on the world just mostly lost/hidden see also the other sibling, although I don’t know alot on that subject.
@46, Izzos:
I think you’re making the Alethi too monolithic. Sadeas would not do that. Aladar might. Roion knowingly sacrifices his own life (in my opinion) to protect Dalinar, recognizing that Dalinar is more important than he is. We don’t get to know many non-Highprince generals, but I don’t think you can assume that their ideal officer would not care about his men. Even Dalinar-the-monster cared about his men. Even Odium seems to care about his people, although that might be a pretense and he’ll drop them in a hot minute if they disobey him.
@47 yes elhokar told dalinar he is the highking, but that never got announced till it was revealed to be used against him. So to everyone except dalinars inner circle, it looks like dalinar is taking away the kings power and acting without him.
@31 Lyndsey Luthor – You had me cracked up at the image of Dalinar Stormborn, the Unburnt. Or would it be the Unburnable, and would Wit take that as a challenge to deliver the sickest burn, so sick that even Dalinar could not withstand it?
@23, 25, 40 (Stormlightchick, almightycolossus and KiManiak respectively) There are a lot of issues with this theory of mine, most stemming from us knowing next to nothing about the Shin. But the timing, the fact that they have the Honorblades already, also that, as was pointed out, the regions near them a nearly empty of shards, and the shards per country increase the further from Shinovar all seem to help support this. But it is refreshing to know that others think that the lack of shards is suspicious, and that the Shin are the most likely suspects. And using an invasion as a cover for the theft is brilliant. Their Empire didn’t collapse, they captured as many shards as they could, and did a strategic to their own lands away from the stone. I think. Can’t wait to find out more in Szeth’s book.
AlerieCorbray @47. Agreed with Scath @50, that conversation hasn’t happened yet. To be sure, I don’t think Dalinar was doing it on purpose or even consciously. But in Ch 4, Dalinar himself reflects on the steps he has taken that have solidified his power at the expense of Elhokar. He had his reasons to be sure, but even he recognizes it as a usurpation and is bothered by it. Elhokar recognizes it too, and in fact that is what precipitates the agreement you referenced in Ch 12. It seems that despite his protestations that he does not like to play political games, modern Dalinar, and more particularly Radiant Dalinar, is a political force to be reckoned with.
@40,
Fraud relates to false dealings. He openly admitted that he has been dealing falsely and intends to continue to do so, which might not constitute a modern fraud charge but is certainly, especially given his rank and position, a very dangerous pattern of behavior that undermines the entire structure of the kingdom and the war effort. Perhaps corruption would be a better charge, but I was mostly trying to encapsulate his plain dishonesty, for which fraud seemed at the time like the best option. I was also kind of trying to play the prosecutor, tossing charges at a wall and seeing how many would stick.
All other things aside, however, there is one element that makes the killing historically justified in almost every culture prior to the modern age. Sadeas abandoning a battlefield is grounds for summary execution. It is either cowardice or a coup attempt, and in both cases it merits the death penalty. In this case specifically it was clearly an attempt to off Dalinar and pave the way for a coup, which makes it treason and grounds for summary execution, but if he argued that the battle was already lost and he didn’t want to lose men to no good effect, then, with Dalinar’s survival disproving that assertion, it is cowardice and therefore also grounds for execution.
My impression of the Alethi legal system (such as it is) is that it is very much a combination of racialist pseudo-science (superiority based on eye color rather than skin color or skull shape) with a might-makes-right attitude. If that is the case, then the fact that Adolin is the son of the most powerful member of that society and that he managed to stall the investigation long enough for it to stop being relevant means that he is legally in the clear. Essentially, if Sadeas is not legally culpable for his actions due to his rank, then Adolin shouldn’t be either.
fulgriim @48: yes, I’m very curious about the role of the sibling in all of this. Reading your comment made me want to try to bin the different magic systems in play here, and I guess there are already more than three. Here’s my preliminary list (the distinctions between some of these may be fuzzy or artificial, this is just how I break them up in my mind):
-Surges (magic relating to the KR)
-Fabrials (magic relating to capturing spren…could also include other spren magic such as the sky eels I guess)
-The Old Magic (which I interpret as the Nightwatcher)
-Voidbinding (magic relating to the Voidbringers…similar I guess to the Surges, just emanating from Odium?)
-The Unmade (their magic seems to be a distinct category from the Voidbringers)
Any other “categories” of magic extant in Roshar that I missed?
Current in-world speculation is that Urithiru itself is a large fabrial. Fabrials draw their power from trapped spren. And while we speculate that Urithiru may draw its power from the Sibling, I rather suspect it is something a bit different from typical trapped-spren fabrials. The theories about the strata being channels for stormlight are intriguing, although its just hard to say from current information. It was also interesting to contemplate that Urithiru and Kholinar were space-ships or flying cities, but it looks like WoB took that one down. Elle @36 brings up the great point that Urithiru was specifically placed by someone, almost like it was transported more than built in its current location.
so to a lot of people regarding Sadeas. It has been said in WoB that becoming/being a highprince is all about convincing enough people to view you as one/support you as one. The whole reason nothing was done to Sadeas after the Tower, was Dalinar knew if he challenged Sadeas, then there would be civil war. Some highprinces would back Sadeas, others would back Dalinar. The fact of the matter was Elhokar was not a strong enough king to command obedience on decree alone. Elhokar could say whatever he wanted about Sadeas, and it would not accomplish anything if Elhokar did not have the support of the majority of highprinces. So the official story that was accepted by all, including Dalinar, was that it was a military blunder, resulting in Sadeas’s retreat. Everyone deep down knew the truth, but the official legal story stated that nothing wrong was done on the side of Sadeas. Its the equivalency of a spouse being abused, and when questioned by the cops, the spouse says “i fell down the stairs”. Unless the cops have a “smoking gun” or the abused spouse comes forward, their hands are tied.
This leads to now Sadeas’s murder. It does not matter how “legal” or not Adolin’s killing of Sadeas is. If it was revealed to be Adolin, and Ialai had the support of the other highprinces that had supported Sadeas before, then there would again be potential civil war unless Adolin was punished. However, Adolin murdered Sadeas in such a way that it could not have been proven to be him unless he admitted it. By the time he admitted it, Ialai’s entire house had fallen in disgrace. Why would the other highprinces back a defunct house? What would they gain? House Sadeas has crashed and burned because of bigger and more important matters, the end of the world. Whether the highprince’s think Dalinar planned it or not is immaterial. What matters is he “won” and Sadeas “lost”. What happened to House Sadeas was literally what Sadeas was gunning for doing to Dalinar at the Tower. Take out Dalinar and Adolin, have most of their troops massacred resulting in Renarin having no political power, no resources, and the house become defunct.
Now this does not mean that Ialai won’t try to find a way to get revenge via assassination, or some such, but at this point in time I do believe legality means nothing. The issue is done. House Sadeas is destroyed. The world is ending. Alethkar is lost. Unless the other Houses want to join House Sadeas in falling, they will fall in line. Not because that is an ultimatum given by Dalinar, but because it is the harsh reality to be faced. Alethkar is no more. They only have Urithiru, and Dalinar rules there.
@43, There was a line towards the end of the beta (I haven’t gotten to it in the published work yet so I don’t know if it survived) where Lyn offers to stab Amaram, which made me REALLY happy. I was… quite vocal in my hatred for Amaram in the betas for both WoR and OB. There may have been a lot of blanked out swearing about Amaram.
Okay… there was definitely a lot of blanked out swearing…
@30 Dalinar realizes he has a shortcoming when it comes to utilizing non military assets later in the book when he realized Renarin should be healing people at Theylan city.
Regarding Dalinar not thinking too much about Adolin and Shallan together: I imagine over the last six years he learned not to think too much about other people’s relationships because we all have a tendency to contrast them to our own and this would only frustrate him with the memory blocks.
The debate in the comments about whether Adolin was right or wrong to kill Sadeas reminds me of Kaladin’s own internal debate in this book.
Carl @@@@@ 49. You make a fair point, I’m sure I’m being a bit harsh on the Alethi in general. The thing is, they are portrayed as being fairly…ruthless? Machiavellian? When you look at the Alethi warrior culture, particularly when they are engulfed in the thrill, concern for the weak and injured does not seem to historically rank high in priorities. Some examples; Dalinar accidentally killed members of his own guard during is Thrill-rages. Tien’s squadleader purposely put forth the untrained soldiers on the front lines to act as decoys. The general disregard that many (although not all) officers have regarding the lives of bridgemen and the care of their wounded. Even Amaram, who went out of his way to create an honorable front was not above killing innocents to secure an advantage. In this context, Kaladin, as a squad leader who prioritized taking care of his soldiers, was portrayed as truly exceptional. So that is why whenever I see an Alethi warrior displaying behavior that conforms to my own sense of honor, it seems to stand out.
AeronaGreenjoy @@@@@ 9 – If that accent’s supposed to be Cockney, it’s worse than Dick Van Dyke’s Cockney accent. And “worse than Dick Van Dyke’s Cockney accent” is not something I ever thought I would write. Ever. I say this as a Londoner. It has never even occurred to me that that accent’s supposed to be in the same hemisphere as Cockney.
Wohoo! I get quoted twice in one re-read!
Still concerned for Renarin, although slightly less (after he still lives). It can only go uphill now, right? Right, guys? <shuffles feet>
Scath @55. Well said.
Wild theory time. I believe that the Stormfather & Nightwatcher’s sibling is Sja-anat. I have no textual support to bolster my theory. On Coppermind, it is suggested that the Unmade (which include Sja-anat) are believed to be spren that became corrupted by Odium. Somehow, Sja-anat was among the those spren who were corrupted. Over the millennia, Sja-anat has somehow loosened the hold that Odium has on her such that she told Shallan she wants to defect from Odium. I think it would be a swerve if she were the Sibling. Stormfather’s refusal to talk about the fate/location of the third Sibling could be because he fears that someday he could be turned by Odium.
As others have suggested, I believe the third Sibling is the key for Urithiru to return to its full functionality. I also think by the end of Book 4, we will resolve the plot issue if who/what is the third Sibling and that Team Honor (for lack of a better term) will get Urithiru fully functional. Even if I am wrong about Sja-anat being the third Sibling, I will suggest a corollary: Sja-anat will take over the role of the third Sibling and be the key to allowing Urithiru to be fully functional. She will replace the role of the third Sibling and will agree to be bonded to Bondsmith. The power that she would potentially wield in this role, could be something that the Ghostbloods want to get their hands on. In OB, the Ghostbloods goals align with Shallan’s. Mraize told Shallan her next assignment will be to get one of the Unmade to turn (he tells her that one may be willing; he will provide Shallan with details later). Failing a willing turn, Shallan is to capture the Unmade for it to serve the Ghostbloods’ ends. Shallan would then have to deal with the consequences of having different goals than the Ghostbloods. At this point, she may have to come clean to Adolin and/or Jasnah regarding her involvement with the Ghostbloods.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@61 I am on board with this theory. Interesting to note that Re-Shephir had congregated/coalesced at the pillar of fused gems, like maybe latently the medium-to-high powered spren know that’s a location they belong.
@61 my issue with the theory that Sja-anat could have been the key to Urithru in the past is that the unmade are referenced in very early visions, but Urithru wasn’t failing and abandoned until much later. Whatever effect let it operate can’t have been lost at the same time as the unmade were unmade.
Edit to add: but I do like the alternate version where she wasn’t before, but can do it now.
About the Shin Invasion: Humans came to Roshar and was given Shinovar to live in. Then a lot of humans left and took over other lands. Maybe that was the Shin Invasion?
Well, probably not. It was so long ago. How long ago was the Shin Invasion? Does anyone know how long it was since humans came to Roshar? And how long ago was the first Desolation?
@59: Ah. I was guessing at the accent’s real-world equivalent, clearly a bad guess. How wouls any other audiobook listeners describe Lopen’s accent?
@64 ingunn_d
Well, when Gavilar names several conquerors, he says the Shin name (Shubreth-son-Mashalan) before he says the Sunmaker and the Hierocracy. Those two happened around the same time ‘five or six hundred years ago’ according to Brandon Sanderson. Of course the order in which he names them doesn’t say anything definite, but I think we should assume a similar timeline.
The last Desolation happened 4500 years before the start of the story. We don’t know how long before that humans came to Roshar, but I always assumed at least a thousand. There were several Desolations before the last one, and the time span between at least the first few was several centuries.
The Recreance happens somewhere in that long stretch of time in between the Last Desolation and the Hierocracy (4500 – 1000 years before the story starts).
@65 AeronaGreenjoy
Apparently Michael Kramer was going for Australian!
Questioner
I’ve been listening to the audiobooks of Stormlight. There are some really great character voices. Have you told him how to do the characters?
Brandon Sanderson
I have not told him how to do characters. I leave that to him. I give him pronunciations.
Questioner
So the Australian Lopen is all him.
Brandon Sanderson
Yeah, the Australian is all him. Which is weird, because they’re, they’re based off of Hispanic cultures, so, hearing the Australian… but at the same time, they’re not Hispanic, because there are no Hispanics on Roshar, so an Australian’s probably just as accurate as anything else. But yes, I intended the Herdazians to have a Hispanic flair to them.
Elle @@@@@ 66 – “Apparently Micheal Kramer was going for Australian!”
Ye gods, really?!
Though on reflection, while it doesn’t sound remotely Australian it does sound like other American attempts at Australian accents I have heard (looking at you, Lance Baden in the audiobooks of Anne McCaffrey’s “Talent” series).
@67 Muswell
I think Michael Kramer is a very talented narrator, and his voices for many of the characters are amazing, but on occasion his accents just sound really off (at least to me). There’s a scene in Mistborn – Shadows of Self when two characters talk about accents and their attempts just.. don’t sound like a real accent real people would have?
Lopen’s accent doesn’t sound Australian to me either, but I just assumed it was some sort of regional variant I didn’t recognise. :)
#53: abandoning your side in battle draws the death penalty in modern times, too. Google “Eddie Slovik” some time. It’s called “Desertion”.
@61, AndrewHB
I don’t think you can say that Sja-Anat “slumbers.”
@44: I am pretty sure there is something about Jasnah. We just haven’t read it yet.
@46: To be honest, we weren’t given ample examples of how the Alethi might make men slaves for no valid reasons. Adolin’s comment does seem to imply, within the Kholin princedom, it is not an approved practice.
Good catch on the “connoisseur of death”… Now, I can’t help but picturing Dalinar, acting poised, with a delicate mustache and freshly pressed clothes, holding a piece of “dead Sadeas” in between his fingers while examining it closely. I agree it was an odd choice of word.
I also agree we do not know enough to state all other officers but Kahl would not have hidden their wounds. We haven’t met any of the Sadeas officers besides Amaram: I find we lack arguments to state they all are scumbags.
There is an old WoB which states there would be people who would think what Adolin did was totally, totally, totally wrong. As a result, I was surprised we met none within OB: everyone which had an opinion on the murder didn’t care about it. If the scene presented within this chapter was amusing and comical, the lack of subsequent consequences make the entire arc feel off. While it can be argued Adolin refusing to be king is the consequence, it fell flat to me because he never were supposed to be king. He wasn’t giving up a heirloom or something dear, he merely got lucky enough to have an excuse to refuse a position he never wanted. This being said, I have read argumentation wanting this arc not to be over. The fact the truth doesn’t come out until the very end makes it hard for characters to actually react to it. Some have advanced the possibility the consequences will come within book 4 as more people are made aware of the fact. Dalinar didn’t seem intend to keep it a secret: he wanted to make a public statement. The counter-argument is Dalinar didn’t seem to care, he seems to have moved pass it by the time Adolin marries, so the theory he may tell other people is not extraordinarily likely. I wouldn’t be surprised if no additional people ever learn the truth, but it would be more satisfying if Brandon found a way to rescue this story arc and give it a more climatic ending.
@53, @55: On the matter of Sadeas being murdered… We could pull out this dead horse out of his grave and beat him back into it, but the fact remains all readers are going to read the actions very differently. While some find it a none-issue considering the warring culture Alethi are evolving into, some find murdering a man in a fit of a rage is never a good decision, no matter who this man might have been. Having seen what Sadeas being dead without a clear back-up plan literally caused his former princedom to rebel which might have turned to be worst consequences than having old Torol still alive. The story isn’t telling us if Adolin did the “right” thing or not, but for my part, the fact no one reacts to it, no one cares, even Adolin, it kind of nullifies the entire narrative from WoR. They went to so much trouble to find a way to defeat Sadeas, legally, when an assassination without a known culprit did the trick and NO ONE CARES. So why didn’t they just kill him from the start? Is Adolin going to make a habit of killing everyone opposing his father? He didn’t react over the fact his little stunt did cause ramifications.
Anyway. This whole arc is a mess to me. Ialai is still alive, she is supposed to be a cunning and dangerous woman, but she read as helpless and useless in OB. I kind of wanted to read this cunning! Where was it? I find it hard to believe, after evacuating all of the Alethi politic from the narrative, Brandon would go back to it, but realistically speaking, if Ialai ever hears the truth, it would make complete sense for her to plan a revenge. Tanalan Jr waited 10 years to try to get his. Sadeas Jr could do the same: his age is never specified. He may not be a child, like some suggested, maybe he’s 16, too young to be a Highprince, but old enough to be trouble. Is Ialai truly finished? I don’t believe it. She still owns her lands, she still has her armies back home, some soldiers might have stayed behind at Urithiru and not all which partake in the battle were killed. She suffered massive loss, but she isn’t completely without resources. Revenge could happen: the question is more whether or not Brandon will go there with his narrative. The one element giving me hope was Ialai’s ties with the Ghostbloods which suggest more is to come.
Personally I disagree that there is a link between ialai and the ghost bloods. True one should not take mraize at his word, but frankly what would he really gain from lying? Shallan already distrusts him, so he wouldn’t ingratiate himself any further with her by saying he isn’t linked with her. Also mraize’s connection with shallan has largely been an honest one. The truth has been a far better weapon when concerning shallan than deception. In fact I struggle to recall a single time with any evidence that mraize has ever lied to shallan.
So then the question is why keep an eye on ialai. I think part is for the reason he said, she’s an unknown element with power. He wants to make sure that element does not end up harming ghostblood interests. The second reason is it allowed mraize to be present for just about every important meeting of note in the book. He was seen carrying ialais chair to a very important meeting. He gets free Intel.
So lastly the question then as you put it is what would be the ghost bloods future regarding ialai? Their interests lie at urithiru and with the voidbringers/ radiant conflict. Ialai is no longer at urithiru and does not have any radiants. Unless she pulls an aesudan, she has nothing to offer or interest them. Ghostbloods don’t need to move against dalinar unless dalinar conciously moves against them. They have been accomplishing all of their goals right under dalinars nose without any problem. Why instigate one? Sja-anat is their latest priority, an unmade, far out of ialais league. And they already have shallan to work on it. So for all those reasons, ialai and the ghost bloods do not sound like a team to me
#56. Lyndsey Luther: I have looked and looked and can’t seem to find it, but I remember the passage. Lyn is hanging around with Bridge Four. Different member are discussing what they will do to someone, it might be Amaram. Lyn, now accepted as one of the guys says that she could stab him a little with her spear. That she just learned how to use it. I will keep looking for the passage. By the way, I love that Lyn turned down the job of Bridge Four Company Clerk. That she wanted to be a regular member. May your character stay strong in the series.
#50 Scath:. I suspect that it was the terms being used that I reacted to like “great liberties”, and “usurping the authority of the king.” Remember this is a weak king that had barely been seen since the assassination attempt. And now was gone hundreds of miles away attempting to rescue his Queen and heir from a war zone. Besides a lot of policy decisions have been decided within the family, like who was Elhokar’s successor? I don’t remember the other cooperating high princes complaining about who was chosen.
#52 Izzos: .He surely is.
#61 AndrewHB: This is just a wild stab in the dark, but could the other spren capable of bonding a Bondsmith, who is sleeping, be the nineth unmade that we have no name for??? If the spren is an unmade, then it must be of Odium??? Plus, if there aren’t two additional candidates for bonding, does that mean that Dalinar could attempt to bond all three?? Would he gain more power?????
@70, Gepeto: “She still owns her lands, she still has her armies back home”
Weren’t they conquered by the Singers?
@73 part of the criteria both dalinar and adolin feel is crucial in alethkars next ruler is it has to be someone that the high princes would listen to and the coalition would respect. Going on that premise they agreed to shallans suggestion for jasnah so I would reason that even if the high princes objected, jasnah being jasnah would have the capabilities to put them in line unlike elhokar. It was shown in the book that jasnah was able to organize disparate groups, a good chunk of which disagreed with her, towards a common goal. Navani initially organized the scholars to check out the gemstone room but jasnah quickly took to the helm and has the ardents (who were against her for their religious beliefs), the stormwardens (who she felt were superstitious as per her commentary on renarin) and the scholars all working together towards a common goal under her. Basically jasnah is my favorite character in stormlight. We don’t see much of her, but what we see is epicness lol. But I digress. I believe the reason why the kholins didn’t check with the high princes regarding succession is it wasn’t the high princes choice who was picked. As per succession it would have been dalinar (because gavinor is too young). Since he decided he wasn’t going to take it, the next was adolin. And he decided he wasn’t going to take it. The selection was up to the kholin. Now convincing the high princes to follow who was picked on the other hand is a different matter. That is why jasnah was picked. She would put the high princes in line and get them working towards a mutual goal. Regarding the ardentia, their main grief with dalinar is he made all these statements and actions and just expected everyone to follow or be ok with it. Kadash was pissed because dalinar wouldn’t think of the consequences of his actions regarding the church. Personally I think all jasnah would have to do is make a proclamation stating that those who chose to still worship the vorin church are welcome to, and ardents can continue to do as they do as long as they do not infringe upon the war effort. She has already stated on numerous occasions that she is fine with other people believing and respects their desire to believe, but it is only when someone tries to convert her or argue with her own beliefs that she responds in kind. The reason I think that would solve the issue is that is in the end what kadash ended up doing and literally said to dalinar that’s all the ardents wanted/needed in the end. Let them still guide their flock as they feel is best.
so for clarity sake for everyone, the state of Sadea’s troops is quoted below:
“All across the field, red faded from the eyes of Amaram’s soldiers. Many immediately fell to their knees, retching on the ground. Others stumbled, holding themselves upright by sagging against spears. It was like the very life had been sucked out of them-and it was so abrupt and unexpected that Shallan had to blink several times before her mind admtted that-yes-this was happening. Cheers erupted along the wall as the fused inexplicably retreated back toward the ships. The parshmen rushed to follow, as did many of Amaram’s troops-though some just lay on the broken stones“
So per the book, a good chunk were killed, a good chunk retreated with the fused onto their boats, with some left laying on the ground feeling empty. Looks like the army was pretty broken to me. As for whether or not there are other forces of Sadeas elsewhere, Amaram was pissed at Dalinar for using them just for rebuilding. The what was assumed to be the battlefront at Jah Keved, he felt was being deprived of him and his men. So the implication is most if not all of Sadea’s forces were at Thayla.
@71: We have no idea what goals the Ghostbloods are actually pursuing and, as such, I do not believe we have enough information to state Ialai if of no interest to them. Mraize has said he wanted to keep an eye on him, implying a connection. What connection may it be? I have no idea, but I wouldn’t take Mraize’s words to Shallan as the truth. Their relationship is not one of equal next to equal: Shallan is basically Mraize’s slave. In a way he’s her pimp: he’s got something against her and he’s using it to have her do his dirty work. He quiets any thoughts of rebellion by giving her sporadic gifts.
I say Mraize is not a good guy and he is not to be trusted.
@76: The singers have conquered some lands, we do not know the extend of it. Ialai flee away in shame. Where to if not her lands?
@78: Dalinar’s army managed to suffer a loss of 6000 men within one fight and it still remained strong. The Sadeas army sure suffered great loss, but their strength had always been their number and their ability to quickly add to it. Besides, we do know they do have armies by inland. They certainly aren’t as strong as they used to be, but they sure aren’t completely helpless either. Tanalan Jr’s princedom was conquered and vanquish, yet, a decade later he was strong enough to rebel. Who’s to say into which state Ialai’s forces will be within a year’s time? Who’s to say her former allies such as Ruthar will turn his back on her? Truth is, we do not know. If Brandon wants Ialai to remain a player (I hope he will), then he sure has the means to do so plausibly.
Actually we have a pretty good idea what the ghostbloods are pursueing. Mraize said so himself to shallan. I have quoted it below for your reference:
“Your task is to secure this location. Urithiru must remain strong if we are to properly use the advent of the Voidbringers”…..”Yes. This is a power we will control, but we must not let either side gain dominance yet. Secure Urithiru. Hunt the source of the darkness you feel and expunge it. This is your task. And for it I will give payment in information.”
So pretty good indicator to me that they are interested in Urithiru, the power of the radiants, and the power of the voidbringers. None of which Ialai has access to anymore. She is no longer at Urithiru (to answer your later question, she is going to the Shattered Plains), she does not have any radiants in her employ nor is she one, and finally she has no means or access to the voidbringers/unmade. As I said unless she pulls an Aesudan and swallows an unmade, she is useless to Mraize.
But this brings us to the next point. Can we trust Mraize? Yes we can. Why? You can always trust a dishonest man to be honest when it suits him. We can trust him to act in his and the ghostbloods best interests. So if we are to theorize their motives, we must ask ourselves “what does he have to gain?”. When he first saw Shallan when he was with Ialai, he says she is not linked to him. If we are to believe you that they are connected, then Mraize lied then. So I ask again, how does that benefit Mraize and the ghostbloods? You later said Shallan was nothing more than a slave to him, so why would what she thought about his connections matter? What purpose would leading Shallan to believe they are not linked accomplish for Mraize? None that I can see. So I think we can take him at face value here.
So in summation for this part, the ghost bloods are interested in Urithiru, and the power of the radiants and voidbringers. Ialai has none of the above, and Mraize has already stated he has no interest in her even when she was a power. Now that she is in disgrace, the ghostbloods have no reason at all to need her. So I do not seem them linked
Where Ialai went I already answered above
Dalinar’s losses were mitigated by being saved by bridge 4. If Sadeas had succeeded, the army would have been wiped out. Sadeas’s army as I quoted, falls into three catagories: dead, turned to the other side, or unconscious. The wording of the quote makes it clear the majority falls into the first two catagories, with some falling in the latter. Tanalan is a faulty example because he still had access to his lands and resources. Once again Alethkar is cut off. There are border skirmishes and evacuations going on. The only “land” she still has is at the shattered plains.
So in summation, I remain in my opinion that the most plausible based on the information referenced in the book is that Ialai has no connection with the ghostbloods and is no where near the threat she once was.
@80: I think you take too much for granted. There is absolutely no garantee Mraize told Shallan the entire truth: it is more likely he told her enough to ensure her obedience. This man has also orchestrated Jasnah’s death: his true allegiance is quite frankly not obvious at this point in time within the story. The reasons why he had an interest in Ialai also aren’t very clear, but I wouldn’t toss the baby away with the bath water until we find out more about this entire arc.
Ialai does not have any Radiant in her employ now, this is true: who’s this will always be the case? My point is I wouldn’t discard Ialai as a player this readily.
Dalinar did not bring his entire armed force to the Tower, he brought 10 000 men: he had more back in the warcamps. He still enough left to lead an assault to the Shattered Plains within the next book. I do not recall the story saying “every single acquainted for Sadeas soldiers were in Thaylenah when the betrayal happened”. Ialai stayed behind, surely she was not alone. She still has resources back home: not every single Highprince have come to follow Dalinar.
I have no idea what will happen within the next book, but I have a fondness of the Alethi internal politic and machination. I personally hope there will be more. It also sits badly with me Ialai would find out about Adolin murdering her husband and…. she wouldn’t do anything about it. Tanalan sought to get his revenge despite meager resources: he took his time, he was patient. Ialai still has her network of assassins.
That still doesn’t tell me what Mraize would have to gain with allying with Ialai. I am interested to hear what would benefit the ghostbloods by working with a disgraced brightlady
By that logic, Mraize should ally with everyone because you never know if they will become a radiant, or be friends with a radiant
Dalinar did not bring his entire forces because a good chunk was policing the warcamps of the shattered plains as well as the outlining areas for Elhokar. He then proceeded to do massive recruiting while fully knowing spys would be embedded. Finally he relied on other highprinces joining him to venture out on the shattered plains. it was commented that if he went alone he would be hopelessly outnumbered. it was due to sebrarial and the other highprince that he had an army to take to the center of the shattered plains. Ialai was not at Thayla because Amaram was in charge of her forces. He was there as the new Sadeas. Here is a list as per Amaram what his army did showing they had engineers, soldiers, and etc as well as the amount accomplished in short a time (which would require a very large number of people), and finally Amaram referring to his army, and wanting them at the front line. I think all a clear indication the clear majority of Sadeas’s men at Thayla but I will let the quotes speak for themselves:
“We shored up positions where the wall was weakened. It’s not high by Kholinar standards, but is an impressive fortification nonetheless. We cleared out the buildings right inside to provide staging and resource dumps, and my army is camped there. We then helped with general reconstuction“….”I misspoke, yet I cannot ignore that the Kholin troops have been deployed to the border between our kingdom and Jah Keved. Your men get to liberate our homeland, while mine spend their days digging in rocks. You do realize the effect this has on their morale, particularly since many of them still assume you assassinated their highprince.”….”Let me prove to you that I am not the same. Storms, Dalinar! I’m your best frontline general, and you know it. Torol spent years wasting me because my reputation intimidated him. Don’t make the same mistake. Use me. Let me fight for Alethkar, not kiss the feet of Thaylen merchants!”
So their troops are in Thayla, not Jah Keved. The level of reconstruction in such short time that Amaram is talking would be a massive undertaking. So I think that makes it clear how much of Sadeas’s army was in Thayla.
Hey you can feel free to think what you want. I said its my opinion. I just feel based on in text evidence, in my opinion I think saying Ialai is hooked up with the Ghostbloods is a stretch. I think it is also a stretch to think Ialai has anywhere near the resources she once had. Again in my opinion based on what we see in the book. Feel free to think otherwise. Just I personally am not convinced.
I thought Adolin was justified in killing Sadeas. Sadeas was a proven and capable enemy of the Kholins. In world there was a lot of inter house mayhem with spying, betrayal and murder being an acceptable means to fight. I see Alethi high prince law as having one rule : don’t get caught.
Dalinar was trying to change that, that’s why Adolin admits, “I’m not the man my father thinks I am”. I believe Adolin loves his father but has been pushed into being what Dalinar wants. Adolin is being forged to make up for what Dalinar used to be.
@82: As I said, the fact we don’t know what Mraize could have gained from an alliance with Ialai doesn’t mean there is no interest for him. It just means this story arc is still left open and could be swing many ways, one of them being the one you suggested. I’m just saying we are missing too much information to state anything with any level of certainty
Dalinar did not bring his entire force because he did not have the time to garner more. He was asked to support the campaign on the spot and said he could raise 10 000 men nearly immediately. The whole discussion implies he had more men, though how many, the story never says, but fact is the Kholin household doesn’t look exactly weak despite having 2/3 of the armed forces Dalinar brought with him that day. Hence, if Ialai lost 2/3 of her forces, she still has 1/3 to re-built on. It is also stated in book the Sadeas had many armies back home.
Yes, most of the Sadeas troops which were onto the Shattered Plains went to Thaylenah, my point is they must have left an armed force behind. It also doesn’t account for the armies they do have back home. I never said she had as many resources as she once had, but I have said I think it is premature to state she has none. She may not have the military power for a coup, but she might still have enough power to orchestrate something more…. subtle. We also do not know the allegiance of the remaining Highprinces: large forces remained onto the Shattered Plains. Not everyone will agree with Dalinar’s decision to focus on the world and ignore Alethkar. There are many ways Brandon could spin this narrative, yours is one way, but I do feel mine is another.
@83: My reading of the Dalinar/Adolin relationship, after OB, is Dalinar has pushed his expectations onto Adolin since the day of his birth. The very name he gave him was meant to express those expectations: a boy to be everything he wasn’t, a boy to be perfectly honorable, a boy born unto light while he lived into the shadows. Dalinar’s pride in Adolin has always worked in pair with Adolin meeting those expectations…. For instance, I noticed how Dalinar states he always hated dueling and fond it useless. I then linked the fact we never really see Dalinar express any pride in Adolin’s abilities at dueling, but he is proud when he thinks Adolin has grown up exactly into the man he wished he’d be.
Later on, Adolin does speak of the rising contradiction into him: his desire to be the man his father wants him to do and the grim realization he wasn’t. I have no idea what it means for their relationship within future books: Dalinar seemed perfectly fine with accepting 23 years of pressure didn’t yield the result he expected. Adolin seemed to have agreed he wasn’t “Born Unto Light” and seemed fine with not obeying his father.
Overall, I agree Adolin was made to compensate for Dalinar’s mistakes: I always found it an interesting swing with much potential. I can’t say if Brandon will go there within future books though, it does not seem terribly likely. It felt to me he basically closed up this arc with Adolin refusing to be king and Dalinar saying: “Oh well, let’s move onto another matter.”.
So lemme get this straight… Hoid’s storytelling is from Taldain, right? Cuz after Shallan sees him storytelling, she notices a jar full of sand, partially black, partially white in his pack. So that’s where he learned to do the thing with the dust and whatnot.
@61, I believe that the Sibling was a Shard who was splintered or what have you. Then, like with Honor/Stormfather, or Cultivation/Nightwatcher, they created a shadow of themselves and hid the shadow on the island (see interlude with soulcaster lady), where it’s guarded by the Aimans? Cremling people? Whatever the politically correct term is for the creepy creatures like the chef and the old guy who Lift met. But now that the soulcaster lady (don’t judge me im bad at names) turned the island to smoke, what happened to the Sibling? Or shadow of Sibling or WHATEVER i’m confused.
I do not believe that Adolin should be forced to shoulder any type of blame regarding the actions of Sadeas’ army at the climax of OB. To suggest otherwise would be saying that it would have been better if Sadeas had lived or at least it was wrong for Adolin to off him. Why should Adolin feel guilty? Despite the high moral guidelines prescribed by the code and the hero complexes we as readers like to project onto him, he is still a product of the Alethi maritime/Machiavellian culture. Killing a demonstrated threat to his household, his family, his kingdom and the greater war effort should cause no twinge to his conscience. Dude had it coming. Even those of us who believe Adolin should not have done the deed or call it murder would agree that Sadeas earned his knife. Same for nearly everyone in power in-world not beholden to Sadeas. Good riddens to bad rubbish.
Some would argue that the slipshod nature of the investigation into Sadeas’ death and treatment of his command post-mortem opens those soldiers to Odium’s influence and precipitates the final battle of OB. They would argue that had he lived his soldiers would not have become pawns for the enemy and thus Adolin should feel at least a modicum of responsibility for their actions. I have several counters to such an argument. First, the events at the Tower opens those soldiers to Odium’s influence long before Sadeas was killed. It could have easily been Sadeas carrying Odium’s flag into battle at Thylen City as Amaram. Or, truthfully, anywhere Dalinar would have sent him. Sadeas was just as Thrill-addicted as Dalinar ever was; he may have ended up being Odium’s champion had he lived. That army was doomed to follow the void the day they rode away from the Tower and abandoned their allies to the Parshendi. There was no entity in the world that could have rehabilitated that group and only a very few that would have been willing to try. Two, that army was not Odium’s only blade, not even his only blade at Dalinar’s back. You could argue that elimination of threats is worth the risk. Sadeas was, while he lived, in place to cause the most harm to any potential defense of Roshar from the Source of Desolations. The outcome of his death could not have been accounted for. Without Sadeas’ death there would have been no progress toward the Alliance. Even if Sadeas dying caused his army to abandon Team Honor, that’s still better than the alternative i.e. Sadeas alive to undermine everything Dalinar worked for. Third, Adolin feels some apprehension about the act itself as is proper, otherwise he wouldn’t have been compelled to tell Shallan. No remorse for the act which is also proper. It would have never occurred to him to feel guilty about what Sadeas’ troops did; he likely felt that they were rotten anyway, even as he respected their fighting prowess.
@87: The problem is we have no idea how things will have played out had Adolin not killed Sadeas: this isn’t how the story unfold. It makes me think of this WoB where a reader asked if Adolin would have defeated Sadeas had Kaladin not make his boon. To this Brandon answered Adolin sure believes he could, but he’s not as good as thinks he is. Bottom line is it is really hard to state how the narrative would have read like had one crucial event been made different. It could be it would have been worst, but it could be it wouldn’t.
It could be you are right and Adolin’s actions changed nothing, but wouldn’t this nullify an already disappointing story arc? One of my issues with it is how the fact Adolin killed Sadea had literally no impact onto the narrative, if Sadeas himself dying turns out not having changed much, in terms of narrative, then why waste page time to introduce the arc? The only way the Sadeas arc doesn’t turn out into complete waste of page time is if the subsequent events unfold because of it. If it has zero consequences, then it is pointless. Authors don’t generally write about events which aren’t crucial within their world-building.
As for Adolin shouldering the blame for what happens later: it isn’t a matter as to whether or not he should, more a matter of it being a realistic reaction. Adolin’s actions had consequences which caused many people to die: thinking they deserved to die just for being Sadeas’s men doesn’t seem within character. More over, Adolin doesn’t like having to kill them later on.
I guess after OB, Adolin remains an open-enough character readers can basically push into him any motivations they see fit. Is he cold-hearted and sociopathic? Does he have an inner Blackthorn waiting to be unleashed? Or is it Evi which sleeps within him? Quite frankly, I have seen readers argue on all front which means whichever motivations the character is supposed to have, OB didn’t make them clear. Brandon once said murder never left no trace, but with Adolin, it did. What does it say about his character?
@86, InhumanByte,
Um, no. She turned some stone and herself into smoke, not the entire island.
Testing… I tried commenting earlier, but it didn’t take. So I’m testing. One short comment, and we’ll see.
jweaver13 @@.-@ – “But I think the Shin invaded to capture as many sets of Shardblade and Shardplate as possible and make sure they were never used, like the Honorblades.” That’s a very interesting theory. I had assumed that the Skybreakers had a whole boatload of Shardblades – and they probably do have a bunch – but that doesn’t really explain where the hundreds of others that should have been around got to. And it would give a little fuller explanation for why the known Blades are primarily in the far eastern countries, beyond the simple fact that they’re the warlike nations. The Shin would have moved west to east, collecting all the Shardblades they could along the way. If they were eventually driven back but took their collection along… well, that makes a lot of sense.
Okay, that worked. I’m so far behind that I’m almost lined up for next week… But I’m going to go through and react to comments anyway, because at the moment I have some free time and no headache. Wheee!! Also, I apologize in advance for the string of comments – it seems to work better when I don’t try to post as much. (And if my big long wall of text suddenly posts and all this is repeated, I’ll feel really stupid. Troglodyte.)
Evelina @6 – I suspect part of the reason Dalinar doesn’t think about Shallan as one of his few assets is that he’s simply not used to thinking of teenage girls in that light. The women he notes are the scout – because she’s a scout, Navani – because she’s his love, and Kalami – because he’s used to her being his primary scribe. Shallan doesn’t fit his habitual thinking. At least that’s my guess.
Scath @7 – Yes. This, exactly.
Celebrinnen @10 – I think you might be correct about Shallan developing some squires, but I don’t remember it happening very clearly. I could, of course, go look it up… but I decided to wait until we get there, or until my curiosity is roused more than it is now.
jweaver13 @12 – Well, then. :D
fulgriim @14 – The spaceship theory has been propounded, but Brandon shot it down here. It’s not – which presumably means the windblades wouldn’t be, either. (I see Elle beat me to that WoB – kind of expected when I don’t show up for three days, eh?)
Number three… (Sorry, really!)
AndrewHB @21 – “I think Renarin’s unease has way more to do with the fact that he thinks hhe is more of a Voidbringer than a Knight Radiant.” As I said, there was much discussion, and that’s one of the predominant theories. I disagree, because I’m not convinced that Renarin was aware of corruption issues at this stage; I also think it fits his personality to be deeply uncomfortable with a position of leadership.
“Re Shin and spren. I do think there is some connection between Shin and spren. When the spren leading the band of parshmen Kaladin immerses himself with appears before him, the spren (to Kaladin’s eyes) looks Shin like in appearance.” We’ve seen this a lot, but I have always taken it to mean that these spren were “imagined” by humans in the early days before their eyes adjusted to the constant wind by increasing the epicanthic fold. It says to me that these are spren who either came along from Ashyn, or were very early manifestations of human concepts on Roshar.
Melissa @24 – I’m with you, totally.
Gepeto @26 – As the parent of two children with widely differing abilities, I find Dalinar’s dealing with his sons very true-to-life. Not exemplary, obviously, but realistic. As you say, it’s complicated by the fact that Dalinar had virtually ignored Renarin for twelve years, and now he’s trying to be a good father instead of the horrible one he used to be. But, let’s face it – when you have a kid with disabilities, you honestly have no idea what to expect them to be able to do. You simply have to do your best to encourage them in whatever areas they show aptitude, and see how far they’re able to go. With a neurotypical kid, especially one whose skills and interests are to some degree aligned with your own, you have a pretty good idea of what they should be able to do, and you tend to hold them to that standard, even when they aren’t interested in that particular standard.
Also – heh. As far as the “reader vote” on what people want to see happen… I find myself less and less interested in fan expectations as we go. Brandon already knows most of where he wants his story to go, though there’s always room for a character to slip around a little and become more – or less – important as things play out. Either way, I’m far more interested in the story he has to tell than in the one some fans think they want to read – even if it’s a majority of the fans. There’s a reason he’s a #1 bestselling author, instead of them.
Number four, and last for a bit while I go read the rest of the comments:
AndrewHB @34 – “…how Brandon wrote that plot line failed.” That’s an interesting claim. Who says it failed, and in what way did it fail? Some fans feel that he failed to meet their expectations in having Adolin suffer immediate consequences. For that matter, some fans claim Oathbringer was a total failure and the worst book Brandon has ever written. Other fans feel that it’s an awesome book, and are perfectly happy with the way the consequences (or lack thereof) played out. (We don’t know whether all the consequences have been completed; we don’t know if there will turn out to be impact to other plot arcs later.) Personally, I thought it was, in-world, a pretty reasonable result. Given that the end of the world appears to be well on its way, by the time they found out it was Adolin there were far too many other things to worry about. To me, it would have felt odd to drag it back up and make a big deal about something that the whole rest of the alliance is perfectly content with. YMMV, of course…
Gaz @35 – Agree.
Elle @36 – “It’s on page 1120-1121 of the hardcover,” That’s exactly the point. Lyndsey said, “I mean, what reason would he have to even consider that at this point?” He does figure it out by the end of the book, likely in part because their strengthening bond helps Glys to remember more, but at this point there’s no reason to think he knows about the corruption.
Gepeto @38 – I think it’s stretching quite a bit to say that “A whole princedom has betrayed them because they thought Dalinar killed their Highprince…” Let’s not forget that these are the exact same soldiers that deliberately withdrew from the Tower, taking all the bridges with them, so that Dalinar and his entire army would be wiped out. Betrayal isn’t exactly a new departure for them.
Also, Adolin does ask himself several of those questions, but given his culture and the situation, he doesn’t feel remorse. As for taking responsibility for everything the Sadeas army does after that – why should he? It doesn’t make sense to expect him to be that neurotic and guilt-ridden, IMO. He knows he’s guilty of murdering a highprince, but he doesn’t regret it, because it had to be done (from his perspective, anyway). If he has any regret, it’s for “failing” to be the perfect man Dalinar thought he was. So guilt for committing murder, yes. Remorse for taking out a major threat? Not a bit.
Long-time reader, long-time lurker, first-time commenter. Regarding the Shin and the honor blades, I though it was interesting in Chapter 38 (Dalinar’s vision of Aharietiam in which Navani and Jasnah also share) that they see the nine honor blades rammed in the stones and a young man with Shin eyes comes upon the blades and falls on his knees in wonder. Seems possible the Shin could have had those blades since day one, and yet they only invaded other lands once (that we know of) and there are fewer shards around Shin. Szeth says later his people were watching for the return of an invading enemy. Makes me really want to read Szeth’s book, although right now with Nightblood and plans to “cleanse” Shinovar hopefully his obedience to Dalinar will rule that out.
Hear, hear about the skill of the story-teller. These books will take us places beyond our wildest imaginations – we have plenty of surprises in store I’m sure.
Adolin’s actions in killing Sadeas may not have prevented his army from abandoning Team Honor, but I don’t believe the arc was a pointless red herring. First, had Sadeas lived I believe that the alliance never materializes. Given Dalinar’s fearsome reputation and Ialai’s obstructive tactics it almost never materialized in the first place. How much worse would it have been with Torol himself (and his devious reputation ) providing the obstruction? I’m convinced that Dalinar’s task of uniting the world to oppose Odium would have been impossible with Sadeas in the room. The world had a hard time believing in Dalinar’s sincerity alone. Sadeas as an ally is worse than having an enemy. I see him actively sabotaging meetings with world leaders to undermine Dalinar’s authority. Even removing him would almost certainly cause a civil war Roshar could not afford in the beginning stages of an apocalypse. Adolin takes out a character that would have prevented the progress of the story had he lived. Necessary. The second has to do with repercussion. Many readers were vexed that Adolin’s kill did not seem to garner many consequences or provide an opportunity for Addie’s character growth. I was slightly vexed about this as well, probably because we as readers had been speculating about that particular bombshell since the ending of WOR. But I do see a narrative purpose in the way the story played out. It shows the readers in a very visceral way that the stakes have been raised. Alethkar and its petty concerns aren’t important anymore. The world has moved on from the sets of the first 2 books. Vedenar is wrecked. Alethkar is in enemy hands. So what was once a big deal in previous books just isn’t any longer. (As an aside, I think that the escalation fell flat for some of us because of how much faster things are happening that fantasy readers have been trained to expect from multivolume fantasy epics. We should be used to it from Brandon by now but what can you do?)
@92, Wetlandernw:
I find it interesting that he’s actually OK at leadership if he gets distracted enough not to think about it. He tells adored older brother Adolin what to do (to A’s astonishment) and then gives Lopen direction that is tactically sound, and which Lopen (who will be a Knight Radiant within 24 hours and was trained by Kaladin) completely misses. It’s only when someone explicitly asks him for leadership that he freezes up–and then still gives correct direction afterwards … to a hereditary prince like himself, although he presumably doesn’t think of Rock that way.
I generally favor giving the author leeway, but not because of the “bestselling” thing. If I wanted to read popular authors I’d be reading romance or mystery, both of which sell far better than SFF. I give writers I like respect because they have, to use Brandon Sanderson’s phrase, “kept their promises to the reader.” In the case of Adolin, lots (including me) feel that this didn’t happen. It felt, to us, like a lot of buildup to an anticlimax. However, I also recognize that the story is not over. Answering also what you wrote in your #93, it isn’t that the reaction doesn’t make bald sense in terms of in-world logic, it’s the “big buildup to a shaggy-dog ending” aspect that’s not working for some people–but again, I do realize the story is not over yet. (If BWS had just emphasized the shaggy-dog nature of the ending, making it clear that this was in fact the ending, it might be more satisfying. I also suspect he’s too good a writer to have done this by accident.)
I always thought the buildup was Jasnah being crowned: Adolin killing Sadeas burdened him emotionally and politically, making him a poor choice to take over. With his confession he is free to gravitate towards his natural strengths, just like Jasnah will be to hers. Extended fallout will likely come from Ialai. That remains to be seen.
And Jasnah’s temperament and struggles during her childhood, not to mention her current idiosyncrasies, indicates to me that she may have more in common with her cousin Renarin than initially meets the eye. I don’t think she’s anywhere in the schizo-spectrum. HFA ASD with High IQ is a better fit.
@92: On Renarin, I am willing to cut the pear in half. I do find both yourself and Andrew have proposed good arguments to explain his behavior. I am going to take there is a little bit of both. So while it is unclear when precisely Renarin got aware of Glys being corrupted, I am leaning towards believing it was sooner than we may think. He was challenged on Glys’s physical appearance early into the book and he seemed to be aware something was off.
As far as parenting goes, I do think a parent’s tasks is to encourage its children to develop their abilities and nurture their strengths, no matter what they may be or how limited they might be. Everyone is good at something, everyone can succeed at something: as a parent we have to help out kids figure out what it may be. In the case of Dalinar, he did start off horribly wrong with Renarin, but his later behavior seems adequate to me. At least, I got the feeling he was doing his best to encourage his son to play out his strengths even if they aren’t strengths he personally share nor understand. DOes it erase the past? Hell, no, but at least it is something positive. It is a fresh start which might have come early enough in Renarin’s life to mitigate some of the harm done to him. With Adolin however, he might have been “more present” when he was young, but he always forced his son down a path he has chosen for him from day one without ever stopping to think if his son wanted it in the first place. I do think there is a difference in trying to steer your talented kid into paths you perhaps personally find engaging, if they have the talent for it, and in trying to have your kid develop exactly the skill set they need to have to befit the path you have chosen for them. In Dalinar/Adolin’s case, I think it is more the later than the former. Dalinar wants Adolin to be a man of honor, a man to abide his own wrongs and he wishes for him to develop exactly the personality he needs to have to meet those expectations. Luckily for him, he was blessed with an eager to please son who worships him, but down the road, I can’t read it as healthy. Understandable? Yes. Realistic? Yes. Healthy? No. I never got Dalinar wanted Adolin to be all he could be: he wants him to be exactly one thing. Has it let it go towards the end? Honestly, I have no idea: I have read arguments going both ways. If I ever get the chance, that’s probably the kind of question I’d love to ask Brandon.
It also made me think of how Lirin wanted Kaladin to be a Karbranth trained surgeon even if Kaladin, despite being good at surgery, seemed to prefer another path. There are differences though and I do think this will make an interesting discussion for once we read those chapters, so I’ll shelved it for now.
@93: As I was reading the story, I expected those elements to be brought forward. The Sadeas’s soldiers blamed they betrayal onto being convinced Dalinar murdered their Highprince. As far as the narrative is concerned, this was considered a turning point into their decision or this is how I read it. Hence, upon realizing their grievances was not entirely false, namely while Dalinar didn’t murder Torol, Adolin did which is more or less the same, I did expect in-world characters to make a bigger deal out of it. An entire princedom went rogue, siding with the enemy, because of an event everyone was pleased to swept under the rug. I did expect Adolin to have a moment where he thinks: “Oh shit, I killed Sadeas to stop its constant nagging and pesky rebellion, but instead of quieting the opposition, it became a monster.” or a moment where he thinks: “Oh shit, they got taken by Odium because they believed my father killed Torol, what a mess I have caused.”. I even expected Adolin to try to stop them by denouncing himself and giving himself away: anything to stop it. I was surprised no one ever expressed a thought on it. All in all, it made Adolin’s character more or less consistent: one moment he is seen to care a lot about the people, but the next he doesn’t care if people get slaughter as a side effect of an action he is guilty of doing.”.
It is not even sure Sadeas himself would have gone this far: he never wanted to break Alethkar, he wanted to be king because he saw himself as the best placed to do so.
@95: No matter how I read it, the whole Sadeas arc didn’t turn out into a satisfying read. So while it is true readers have perhaps made too much of a big deal out of the event, the entire scene, back in WoR, read in a rather climatic way. The anti-climatic way it turned out wasn’t, IMHO, great continuity with the ending of WoR. If the only consequence of the action turned being a betrayal which would have happened anyway or which turned to be a “better outcome” than expected, then yeah, the whole arc becomes one massive Red Herring. If Sadeas dying was not meant to be significant to the overall narrative, then his death shouldn’t have been written in a significant way.
On reader’s expectations and Brandon:
I am with Carl and Andrew on this. Brandon speaks of “promises to the readers”, he speaks of story arcs being written in a way to specifically create expectations such as to yield a strong feeling of satisfaction once they are wrapped up. The murder of Sadeas was a climatic scene which made a significant number of readers think there would be consequences, especially for Adolin’s character. So while it may “make sense”, “in-world”, for nobody to care and for Adolin to never be found out, it still wasn’t a climatic enough follow-up of the tension and the angst created with the original narrative.
Hence, while it is true there are readers who either loved or “are fine” with how this story arc turned out, I do think we cannot ignore the fact it didn’t work out for a non-negligible number of readers. By this, I do not mean Brandon ought to listen to every single expectations his readers have and answer them in kind, but it should serve to make him more mindful in creating expectations he does not intend to answer to within future books. The whole Adolin arc is definitely one of those. Brandon was aware of the anticipation over his character arc, he was aware of the intense speculations going on around his character: he could have addressed it during any one of his Oathbringer update, to help readers accept he has no intention to carry down the hype. He could, but he didn’t. And that, IMHO, may have been the mistake. So again, the fact there are readers which like the denouement doesn’t change the fact many have come forth to say it was misstep for them. Millage will vary here, but this arc is definitely not making unanimity.
This being said, could the arc be salvage and turn into a worthy conclusion answering enough of the readers expectations to satisfy them and make them forget they didn’t enjoy how it panned out in OB? YES. It definitely could. Will it? Now, that’s another question entirely, probably one I would ask Brandon, if I ever get the chance to.
Wetlandernw @93. I think you misunderstood my comments in my post @34. For purposes of my post in @34, there were only two people who thought (at least from a literary perspective) that the Adolin murder of Sadeas plot failed: myself and Gepeto. I was responding to an earlier post by Gepeto where he thought the plot was a failure. FWIIW, I think that judging by the reactions from people who post on Tor.com (the only forum for fan opinions of OB I read), I think most people are satisfied with the resolution of the Adolin murdering Sadeas plotline. Apologies if I did not make it clear enough my statement that Brandon failed on this plot was limited to mine and Gepeto’s opinions.
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Wetlandernw @93. Just because Renarian voices (either as a statement to other characters or an internal monologue) at the end of OB that he believes he is closer to a Voidbringer than a KR does not mean that he did not have the same feeling in Chapter 2. It means it is open to conjecture. Maybe he came to this conclusion when the Everstorm hit.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
I find Palona and Sebarial (especially Palona) to be some of the more intriguing minor characters. I guess I just appreciate how they basically do their own thing and don’t really care about how they come across, although I do suspect in part that is completely intentional.
Jasnah and Renarin are two of my favorite characters, perhaps because I relate to them in different ways. I could see that Jasnah might be on the spectrum, if not diagnosable in a clinical sense.
Gepeto @98. You said “I do not mean Brandon ought to listen to every single expectations his readers have and answer them in kind, but it should serve to make him more mindful in creating expectations he does not intend to answer to within future books.”
I have never published a a fictional story and am unlikely to ever do so. Heck, I have not written any “stories” since many moons ago in some of my college classes. Any such thing I did write in college is not in the same universe as a successful published author such as Brandon. This is all to say I am not familiar with the ins and outs of writing a novel for mass consumption. That said, I hope that Brandon (or any other author I read and enjoy) does not ever consider his readers expectations when he writes. I keep reading Brandon’s SA books (as well as the books of other authors) because I enjoy the story, characters and the author’s writing style. If any author caters to his audience (i.e. changes his/her style or plot), then it ceases to be the author’s story. It is a collaboration between the author and his/her fans.
Sorry to preach. Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@93 Wetlandernw
The problem with Renarin is that we don’t get to see things from his POV until all the way at the end of the book. And even before that, while he has several conversations with his brother and Rock, we don’t really know at which speed his journey as a Radiant is progressing. So while he made that comment at the end of the story, it doesn’t sound to me like it’s something he only just now figured out. However, you’re right that in order to make my comment I had to assume some things, but I think they’re reasonable:
We know that in only a few chapters, he will have progressed far enough to gain a Shardblade. By this point in Kaladin’s and Shallan’s progression, they were talking to their spren, and their spren was capable of speaking back intelligently, so I’m assuming that’s the same for Glys and Renarin (even if Glys’ sentences in part five seemed to be quite simple, they did discuss things).
Long before this chapter happened Renarin started having visions of the future, which must have scared him, considering Vorin theology. And while Glys usually hides, I’m assuming Renarin has seen him several times (I believe one of the first hints we got about Renarin’s surgebinding is a WoB that says he sees a spren no one else does). He shows up while Renarin is having a vision at least once, though we don’t know if that’s always true.
Since Renarin clearly already believes something went wrong (he asks in WoR why the Almighty cursed him), I’m guessing he must have asked Glys about his.. alternative colour scheme (since Vorins also think red is evil, at least in certain situations). And at some point before part five, Glys told Renarin about his corruption by Sja-Anat. Renarin doesn’t seem too panicked about it in the moment, so he must have had some time to come to terms with it.
Of course we don’t know exactly when all these events happened, but we know some of them happened before Chapter two, and we know others probably happened around this time as well (the Shardblade).
So yes, while I’m making an assumption, I do think that even if the later half of my arguments are not true, we already have enough reasons (his visions and comments in Word of Radiance) to accept that Renarin already believes something went wrong somehow. But I could definitely have misinterpreted some of the actions I mention here, that’s happened before and will definitely happen again at points in these giant books. :)
On a different note, I realized that all the way at the end of the book, Shallan gets a second letter from the Ghostbloods, and it talks about Sja-anat. Immediately afterwards, she wonders if the Ghostbloods found out Renarin bonded one of her spren, or if Shallan is the only one to know that.
How did she figure this out? Sja-anat told her to find ‘her son’, and as far as I can tell she never named Glys. I find it unlikely Jasnah told her, but I don’t think Shallan saw Glys. Did Sja-anat tell her in Shadesmar, and is this another bit of unreliable narration, in which Shallan only tells the readers a small part of what she actually knows?
To me, high functioning autism can come about a couple of different ways, the individual is smart enough to fake it till they make it, otherwise known as masking. It’s exhausting, but doable with a good rest routine based around environmental shaping. Or the individual is fairly compliant to requests, which is not as heavily correlated with IQ. Depending on a variety of factors related to improvement of sensory processing issues and personality, someone might not initially seem Autistic.
Jasnah’s childhood strikes me as a kid who suffered heavily from sensory processing issues. Perhaps overstimulation to sound, touch, or light. Add on frustration at an inability to communicate for a variety of reasons and constant emotional outbursts are almost a guarantee. So they lock her in a room because they suspect she’s insane. Then her SPD improved over time naturally or with someone helping her build a level of tolerance. I have a feeling she helped herself adapt in order to get out of the roo. Who knows. Until we get a POV related to that time period it’s not a slam dunk. Just a best guess.
@103, Elle:
She figured it out. I did too, and Shallan is at least as smart as real-world me. No need for secret reveals.
I’m just realizing how OB is as much a personal family drama as grand epic fantasy. The Kholins are all shaped by the course Gavilar set and the effects of their upbringing. Whether the visions set him on this course or appeared after he began; I’m not sure. The fact that Sadeas was at his side almost seems like Odium was in this from the beginning. Sadeas was a murderer and rapist from the start. The Thrill being a mostly Alethi problem from the start also leans that way.
All of the current adult generation of Kholins have issues due to their upbringing. I suspect we’ll learn a lot more about what really happened with Jasnah in a future book. I also think it will be much darker than Adolin and Renerin’s childhoods . It would be hard to beat what happened with Shallan though.
@99: I read more than two people being unsatisfied with it on both Reddit and the 17th Shard. I haven’t obviously count them, but I have read enough comments made by sufficiently different people to make the educated guest this wasn’t a complete crowd pleaser. It is true, on average, commentators onto Tor.com seem more positive about it, but I honestly haven’t read many commentaries of readers having absolutely loved it (not to say there are none), most are mitigated, more than a few agree it was under-whelming. As a rule of thumb, I’d argue readers are either moderately fine with it or displeased with it to various levels. Overall, I am not reading an overwhelmingly positive response to this arc. You and I might be more negative than average about it, but it is false to think we are the only ones.
@102: I hope my commentary will not be taken in a negative way, but it seems to me the expectations this particular story arc far surpassed what we got into the book. Since Brandon has obviously planned for the narrative to unravel this way, it made me wonder how did this happen. I am obviously not saying Brandon should have changed his plans to better fit the expectations, but it seems to me he could have executed the very narrative he has planned in ways which would have made it more satisfying for more readers. I also feel it would have been nice if he had addressed the readers having expected a lot more out of the arc: he did warn the readers not to expect big arcs for both Jasnah and Renarin in OB, which I thought was odd as both got much, much larger arcs than I personally expected, but still, I appreciated the sentient. I wish he had done the same for Adolin, a kind warning, a way to bring down the hype, something. Anything to not make those very engaged readers feel like they wasted their time theorizing on the one story element he never planned to follow-up onto.
Obviously, not everyone will agree with me, I am not seeking agreement, I am just sharing my thoughts. I hope they do not bother too many readers.
@68 : I would like to mention there are no regional variants of the ‘strayan accent =D
you can get stronger examples of the accent in various places but generally its the same across australia.
i too have always imagined the lopen and all herdazians as hispanic, so to hear an australian accent for him would be very strange.
SPOILERS FOR GAME OF THRONES AHEAD
@95: I too found the killing of Sadeas as an elevation in the stakes. And it reminded me of another massively popular epic fantasy series (well, TV show at this point) – specifically the latest season.
Littlefinger, like Sadeas, was a schemer and manipulator whose only desire was power and the throne (and maybe Sansa….ugh). But the White Walkers are through the Wall. If they win it won’t matter whose frozen skeleton is sitting on the Iron Throne. So in terms of narrative, LF had to go. Same with the Desolation and Sadeas.
@109: Continuation of GRRM spoilers…
Yes, but Littlefinger’s death wasn’t anti-climatic: it was perfectly satisfying, especially since we enter the arc thinking Sansa is betraying Arya.
The problem with Sadeas dying is not so much the fact he died, it is the fact it is presented as a defining moment for Adolin’s character, but it then never pans out into anything concrete. There was also the fact the story told us murdering a Highprince was a big NO-NO and the penalty for it was either death or exile. Considering those story elements, the absence of consequences, follow-up and the fact the Kholins just don’t care Adolin did it really clashed with the previously introduced narrative. Why introduce this whole: “Oh no Adolin just killed Sadeas and we know he is risking exile” narrative if it wasn’t going to play any role within the subsequent development? It would have been better to never speak of it, have Sadeas die in a very anti-climatic way and keep on with the narrative as planned.
Gepeto @107. The reference to two people think Brandon failed concerned who I was talking about in my post @34. I said that it was my opinion and yours that Brandon failed. That post was never meant to be a majority of people thought he failed or only you and I thought he failed. I was responding to one of your earlier posts. That is why I limited my statement that you and I thought he failed.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@107 – I actually think Adolin did have a relatively large arc for a non-focus character in this book, though, so Brandon giving a warning that he wouldn’t may have been confusing. (I am with the commenters who are fine with how it turned out and who adore Adolin, though, so I admit bias.) I thought ending the last book with the murder was a good cliffhanger to make everyone absolutely crazy for Book 3, but I didn’t come into OB expecting that it would be a large arc by any stretch, since a) as a few people noted above, the world is literally ending and Alethi politics had to recede in importance at some point; b) I wasn’t expecting Brandon to kill or exile Adolin since he is the son of one of our main Radiants and the fiance to another; and c) I agree again with people above that Sadeas had to go and this was, for me, a more heartfelt way to let him go than having him die in battle (also more realistic since he had Shardplate all along and had a blade after the betrayal at the Tower). I am also one of the people who didn’t feel that the murder was really that out of character for Adolin. We see in the TINY (please give us more!) Adolin viewpoints that we have before this that Adolin is a man of great passion who, like his father, works hard to keep them contained. All of that rage boiled over when he realized Sadeas was still hellbent on destroying his family.
That said, I do understand how some people could be disappointed that there weren’t more in-world consequences for Adolin. Count me as someone who is in the camp that is happy that there weren’t but is also expecting/dreading to see more in the next book after Adolin’s role as murderer becomes more widely known. I also personally think that having Adolin use the murder as proof he can’t be king is significant, not only for himself but also for Shallan, one of our primary Radiants.
@106: I am puzzled about Jasnah. I’ll admit this one quote did send my speculation machine in full gear. What lunacy? What dark room? When Gavilar spoke to Dalinar, he seemed to hint towards a behavior which was problematic, hence all guesses of Jasnah hiding some sort of neurological trouble seem highly plausible. I liked the suggestion it might be autism because I felt it would tie in neatly with Renarin’s story arc. Also, since autism does have a genetic component, it would make sense more Kholins than Renarin have it, unless it came from Evi, but Evi just did not seem as if she were anywhere onto the spectrum.
This being said, I am not convinced of @104’s suggestion of a sensory issue: it does not seem to match grown-up Jasnah. Neither do tantrums seem to match what we know of her. It is however a very valid point to state not all autistic individual positively test for it and, sometimes, adults have learn to compensate so much for it, they fail test they previously aced.
My current beats are either schizophrenia or high level autism, but we are working with sparse clues.
@111: Fair enough. I only meant to say you and I aren’t the only readers I have seen expressing a given lack of satisfaction towards this specific arc.
@112: Your commentary illustrates how all of readers are coming from various places. Adolin might not have been an “official” focus character, but he was one of the most important viewpoint character. In WoR, he had as many viewpoints and page time as Dalinar, hence the argument of him “not being a focus character” never were one I truly believed much in. Who’s to say only those ten characters were the ones to get development and a story arc? Wouldn’t it be more interesting if Brandon were to interlaced additional story arcs from various characters as opposed to have readers sit and wait for one of the ten to pop into the narrative? Such were my thoughts, on my good days, before OB was released. More over, my perspective as a reader was while Jasnah/Renarin were one day to be main protagonists, they weren’t now. Hence if there were characters I didn’t expect much in terms of story arc, it was them, because considering the books we had read so far, Adolin actually was more of a main character than they were. I thought it was best to base myself onto the narrative having been written so far instead of the one not yet written out.
Thus, I thought Brandon could have warn the readers there was less of Adolin into OB than within WoR/WoK. Or he could have warned the readers there wouldn’t be much of Adolin until the very end of the book. Or say he understands the anticipation and the hype, while recalling the readers to get their options open as things may play out differently. From my perspective, it just seems like 3/4 of the post-WoR discussions suddenly became irrelevant and meaningless, idiocies to be tossed away as, of course, there was never to be an arc over Adolin. So yeah, it was kind of… mew for me. So yeah, I do wish there was a way Brandon could make it flow better or at least give away something in exchange. Adolin was such a talked about subject and now… there is nothing left to talk about but to state how some of us didn’t like the denouement.
As for the cliff-hanger, it did serve to get everyone crazy over book 3, but it also served to have some readers feel utterly left down with OB as it didn’t capitalize on it. It was a crazy gamble to write a narrative which turned into the most talked about subject only to flip it on itself and turn it into another narrative not coming anywhere close to answer to its own hype. Maybe it was an experiment Brandon tried, if so, it was a cruel one. Hence, while there are readers such as yourself who appreciated the turn of event, I was not one of those. Adolin’s arc is, IMHO, all over the place, not coherent with itself and too sparse to form an arc as if Brandon couldn’t decide what Adolin’s purpose was: he is a foil? a side-kick? a comical-relief? Or a character worthy of some development? It seems to me he toyed which each one of those and, in the end, I can’t say Adolin’s character feels more relevant into the narrative than he did before.
I personally never thought Adolin would be exiled because the book structure didn’t seem like it would allow it, but I did think it would, at the very least, be something Adolin fears or reflects on. I did expect lesser consequences such as either a rift with his father or disinheritance. Since Dalinar did not care one bit about the event, I can safely say there were no consequences. I can’t say about the future, but let’s say boiled cat fears hot water.
I think Adolin using the murder to back away from being king marks the moment he stops thinking he needs to meet his father expectations. Dalinar’s subsequent approval of Adolin’s change of behavior marked, to me, the end of this entire story arc. The circle was closed. Adolin no longer feels the need to be what Dalinar makes of him, the pressure is now gone. Dalinar accepts this is the case. Father/son issues are now completely solved.
It would have been more satisfying had Adolin refused to be the Highprince. Him refusing a position he was never supposed to get anyway just seem like “status quo”. Anyway, enough on that.
On the side note, your description of Adolin made me smile because this is exactly how Shallan describes Kaladin. It also marks the beginning of the theory wanting the Adolin/Shallan/Kaladin to be a mimicry from the Gavilar/Navani/Dalinar’s love triangle. As a rule of thumb, it is Kaladin I have seen readers describe as “a man of great passion he can barely control”. Mind, not this to say your interpretation is wrong, but I found it interesting given the context.
I don’t know if anyone else has this idea but to me the Shin reverence for stone seems all about keeping them confined within the lands they were first granted on Roshar. The mountains that surround Shin are made of stone. You couldn’t leave without walking on it. I picture some portion of the population taking this on as a self-limiting principle and now it is embedded so deep in their culture they may no longer remember why.
Also, thanks so much for these retreads. I’m sure they are a lot of work. You catch so much stuff I missed.
Re-reads, not retreads
113 – I love Adolin with Shallan and hope the love triangle with Kaladin can be put to rest now. It worked well in the story, but I feel it has now served its purpose. I didn’t realize people were hoping for a 2nd generation of a sad first marriage endured to get to one’s great love. How sad!!
Renarin already worried about seeing the future in the last book. That is probably why he didn’t tell Dalinar that he was a Radiant when he knew that Dalinar was looking for them.
Going back to Amarams army I feel that a good portion of it is still alive only so many got inside the walls to fight, and only so many died to Szeth, the majority were fighting against Shallon’s shadows if I remember correctly.
@84 Gepeto
I’m sorry but you still haven’t offered me any possibilities that remotely convince me that Mraize would have any interest in Ialai as per the narrative we see in Oathbringer. I have shown numerous examples that show he has no interest. Could you provide in book page references that would show why he would have interests in Ialai? I could say Roshone will find a way to kill Rayse and take up the shard of Odium, becoming the new big bad, and kill Dalinar aiming for a final show down with Adolin who picked up the shard of honor from Dalinar. You can’t prove that this absolutely cannot happen, but at the same time, I cannot provide in book evidence that shows it is going that way. Could Roshone find a way to kill Rayse? Sure, its possible, but that doesn’t make it probable based on the narrative. Could Roshone/Odium kill Dalinar? Sure its possible, but that doesn’t make it probable based on the narrative. Could Adolin pick up the shard of honor for a show down with Roshone? Sure, but again based on everything we know of Roshone, everything we know of Rayse, everything we know of Odium, everything we know of Dalinar, everything we know of Adolin, it is just not probable based on the narrative. So too, in my opinion is your theory that Mraize and Ialai are working together. Based on the information provided on Mraize, on Ialai, on the Sadeas Princedom, it is just not probable to me based on the narrative.
Not sure if this portion you misunderstood from me. Back in Way of Kings, a large chunk of Dalinar’s forces were used to guard the king, police the warcamps, and patrol the surrounding area to prevent bandits. It was commented in book about how Dalinar looked like the “lapdog” of the king by doing it. That his army was much smaller than the other highprinces as result. So from the narrative, we see how for the Kholin princedom, it makes sense that they still had an army to draw upon after the massacre at the Tower (that was still mitigated slightly by the save by Kaladin). Sadeas’s princedom did not have that reason in the narrative. It does not state “a portion of Sadeas’s army went to Thayla”. What it does say is the leader of the house, Sadeas, the front line general, was their with his army. It also says in the book, how there are enough of Sadeas’s men, that Odium actually holds back the listeners and the fused, so that Sadeas’s army alone attacks Thayla. That does not read to me as per the narrative, that that is only a portion of Sadeas’s army.
Why would Ialai leave in disgrace if she still had a strong enough force to back her? If she still had the other Highprinces backing? Sadeas’s screw up at the Tower did not result in him fleeing the Shattered Plains in disgrace. Why? Because he had a nice big army and highprince allies there to back him up. Now the highprinces are backing Dalinar, Sadeas’s army is wiped out, and Ialai is surrounded by enemies that are tapping into “divine” powers she can’t possibly compete with. Again feel free to see the narrative however you wish. Based on in book evidence, I personally don’t buy it.
Hell, lets think through how Ialai would function as an adversary in a later book. I believe (correct me if I am wrong), that you theorized that she would/could use her resources to undermine the coalition. Use the information that Adolin killed Sadeas to turn the highprinces against Dalinar. Possibly gain access to a radiant to infiltrate Dalinar’s inner circle, or interest Mraize. Use that information to convince the coalition that Dalinar is still the Blackthorn brute and will murder them if they don’t stay in line, making the coalition collapse. Except…..that all already happened. Because of Taravangian. Taravangian already has a radiant. Taravangian already used the radiant to spy, and then use the information regarding the highking, meetings with odium, and the recreance to try and break the coalition. Taravangian has the resources of two populations, the city state Kharbranth, and the country Jah Keved. He has the diagram that although proved faulty in the past, still has a degree of foretelling. And finally he teamed up with Odium, a literal Shard with a capital S. Basically everything you stated Ialai could do, Taravangian either already did, or will do with more resources, and better execution. So why is Ialai necessary then? She would just be repeating a narrative we already read. One already resolved (the attempt to break the coalition), and the new narrative (alliance with odium) all focused on Taravangian. He is the manipulative, moving behind the scenes, mastermind you are hoping Ialai will become/show herself to be. He’s it.
So continuing the train of thought that Taravangian is basically doing or will do everything you say Ialai could do, then how can Ialai be a threat? Be a villain to our main cast? Honestly I see only one avenue, and this is one I know you will not like, and I know all your reasons for hating it, but I cannot see any other avenue for Ialai. Simply this, she puts together an assassination attempt on Adolin……and succeeds. This does not preclude Adolin from reviving Maya. He could have all next book, maybe even the fifth book to revive her and slip and slide his way as an edgedancer. But in the end, his life be cut short by a triumphant Ialai, who then dies shortly after in retaliation for Adolin’s death (whether by Shallan’s hand, Dalinar’s, or Kaladin’s), but satisfied she has at long last got her revenge. Even this however still feels like a stretch to me, because it would require it to be pushed off so it doesn’t read exactly the same way Elhokar died, but at the same time be soon enough that it doesn’t read as coming out of no where or a stereotypical villain twisting mustache “muahahaha” kill.
Oh! One more thing I forgot! Jasnah has Ialai handled too! There were easily 3 separate occasions where Ialai tried to cause problems in the coalition and Jasnah shut her down like nothing every single time. Now Jasnah is Queen, with all the power that comes with it. Ialai has shown to be a non-issue to Jasnah. I couldn’t see there being a way Ialai could get past Jasnah.
So again in summation, based on what is shown in book, with in book references, in my opinion I just do not see it being probable that Ialai is connected to the Ghostbloods, nor will be the threat you hope she will be. But YMMV.
@88 Gepeto
Well in my opinion Sadeas’s death did affect the narrative. Had he not died, the Re-shephir plot line would not have come to the surface. It was clearly shown in the investigation that minor people in Urithiru dying registered as barely a blip, and not one at all to our main characters. Multiple deaths were not even noticed till the investigation of Sadeas’s death. Without that, who knows how long Re-shephir could have been operating, or making things worse? So the response would be, “Well why not a different highprince, or someone else important rather than Sadeas?”. Well the issue is, would another highprince dying make sense? Why did they die? Who killed them? How do we resolve that murder? Doesn’t make sense to have Adolin kill anyone else other than Sadeas. It doesn’t make sense for Shallan, Dalinar, nor Kaladin to kill any other highprince or important individual. I also cannot think of any other character, killing any other highprince/important person with good reason from a narrative perspective. A random Kholin soldier wanting revenge on Sadeas? We would need to be introduced to the random soldier, get to know him or her, and understand the motivation that carried him or her that far. Just saying he or she lost someone isn’t enough. Then it would be treating Sadeas’s death like an ACME anvil. Just push a button and move on with the story. So we see it had to be Sadeas to bring the double deaths to the main characters attentions. We see it had to be Adolin doing it, so we could understand the motivations, experience it, and explain why there was such an interest in the investigation. That interest led to the Unmade Re-shephir. That led to the Unmade Nergoul (sorry about spelling). It lead to larger issues in the overall narrative. Now this leads to my next point:
Just because something is not conclusive to the fandom, or not “clear” enough to be resolved one way or the other, does not mean the narrative failed. We are already two months away from release, and everyone is still discussing Oathbringer ravenously. Wit/Hoid says himself:
“Human taste us as varied as human fingerprints. Nobody will like everything, everybody dislikes something, someone loves that thing you hate – but at least being hated is better than nothing. To risk metaphor, a grand painting is often about contrast: brightest brights, darkest darks. Not grey mush. That a thing is hated is not proof that it’s great art, but the lack of hatred is certainly proof that it is not.”
Sounds like Oathbringer certainly succeeds in being art to me. If everything is so clear, and everyone agrees on a book, what is there to discuss?
Oh sorry for the triple posts but one more thing! honest! lol. It has been said in some people’s opinion’s that view points determine or are a good indicator on whether or not a character should be a main character. There are WoB that say the reason Renarin and Jasnah get so few view points is they are like pandora’s box. There are so much to both characters, to even give them a minute, would require giving them hours. That is why they are big in the later half. Just because they do not have many now, does not mean that they lack richness. Adolin is like a microwave tv dinner (and this is said with love lol, not meant to be an attack). He is there, he is quick, and tasty. He is a meal that gives you what you need after a long day of work when you just want to relax the day away. Jasnah and Renarin are braised beef. They need a slow cook to infuse all those flavors, tenderize and juicy. They give you a meal that you have to work at making, but leaves you kicking back, stuffed, satisfied, and going wow. Both meals are great, and serve their purpose, but go about it in different ways.
Many Gepeto and AndrewHB: .The two of you had a long discussion, over the course of a number of posts about how displeased you were with Oathbringer. Gepeto in #107, you talked about Oathbringer not being a crowd pleaser and while the comments were normally positive, that very few seemed to absolutely love Oathbringer. Well, count me as someone, who absolutely loved Oathbringer. Since November, I have read most of the novel at least five times, some parts more. I definitely find it intriguing, difficult to set down. I find most of the posters fully engaged and interested in sorting out whether Renarin or Jasnah have crippling mental illness, or what should be the final results once Adolin’s murder of Sadaes becomes known. I have yet to figure out why you are placing so much negative energy into the discussion, when there are such very interesting topics to examine. This is just my humble opinion.
#114 Nymeria: I like the way you think. The same idea occurred to me. The humans were placed in an area that had soil, not stone under foot. It is likely, their original restrictions that many ignored, may have definitely become a religion to the ones who stayed. Great idea.
Nymeria @114. Yes, I agree that this is a very intriguing theory, and I’m currently leaning that way. Something similar was proposed in the Prologue re-read comments (Matt @88).
Continuing this thought, there has been some very cool theories bandied about so far about the Shin, their religion and activities on Roshar over the centuries. I thoughtI would try to summarize them a bit (note that I don’t take credit for having originated any of these ideas, I’m just trying to organize my thoughts around them.)
1. So its been theorized that the reverence that the Shin have towards Stone and the taboo of walking on it or working with it stems from the fact that when humans were first welcomed to Roshar, they were given an earth-like space to live in and were not supposed to expand beyond that. Over time this may have turned from a rule to a religion. If that is the case, I’m curious when this feeling got canonized. Before, during, or sometime after the last Desolation?
2. Modern Shin appear to be pacifists. But was that always the case? We know of at least one Shin who was around, walking on stone at the conclusion of the Last Desolation, and it seems that it was he that found the abandoned Honor Blades. So again, when did the religious taboo about walking on stone originate? Did the Shin participate in the fighting of the Desolations? If their reverence for stone predated the Desolations, one wonders what side they even would have been on? Were Shin part of the KR? And, despite their assertion that warriors were an inferior profession, they do seem to be proficient in martial arts. Szeth appears to have trained with all of the Honor Blades and seems at least familiar if not proficient in all of the Surges. I got the impression that he is not the only one. Why train with the Blades? Some have guessed that they see themselves as custodians awaiting the return of the Heralds. But when Szeth warned that a new Desolation was coming, he was cast out. Not only that, he was given a Shard Blade and left to follow the whims of whoever held his Oathstone. Surely they must have known what the result of that would have been. So again it makes we wonder, in the old struggle between humans and singers, who’s side are the Shin on? I really don’t know, but we can no longer take for granted that the battle lines are very clear cut.
3. Follow on to previous: There is a carrot in this chapter referring to Shin invasions. We don’t know when those occurred, but we assume sometime after the Last Desolation. It has been postulated that their goal was to recover as many of the abandoned shards from the KR as they could. This might explain why shards are so rare in modern Roshar, particularly in the eastern countries closer to Shinovar. If this is true, one wonders again about their purpose. Did they want to use the Shards to shore up military might? Did they just want to keep them out of the hands of the “heathen” humans? Or is this another custodianship thing to await the return of the KR? Or did they understand that these shards were dead spren and collected them out of reverence? I personally suspect something like the later case.
So many questions about the Shin!! Any other thoughts or theories? Can’t wait for the next book when I hope we get some answers.
AlerieCorbay @123. I actually enjoyed OB. My posts above that criticized OB were in the context of ending the prior book with Adolin’s killing of Sadeas snd how I thought the resolution of the story did not live up to the placement in the prior book. This is a criticism of style rather than content. Carl’s opinions on this subject in @96 above sum up how I feel above this issue.
My purpose with this post is that clarify that I am not displeased with Oathbringer. I had one minor criticism (despite the fact that the subject matter of my criticism was a running theme throughout many of my comments in this week’s post).
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Late to the party, but here is something that made me wonder during the re-read – where is Bordin? Wouldn’t a trusted spy whom Dalinar left back in Kholinar to watch over the queen and who was so instrumental in the ploy to unmask Amaram, have been a perfect investigator for this murder? Or an assistant of one, at least. Even though I have my doubts re: his skills or allegiance, as he apparently missed the warning signs concerning Aesudan, some of which were of long enough duration and fairly easy to spot judging by the Lhan Interlude in WoR. But Dalinar didn’t seem to suspect Bordin, nor did he send him back as far as we know, so this seems like an odd ommission.
EvilMonkey @95:
What felt flat for me personally, was that nobody was freaking out re: newly awakened parshmen heading to Alethkar, then reports of rioting, then cut-off of communications as they should have. Yes, I wholly agree that the end of the world has arrived, but Sanderson failed to show the necessary emotional reactions of all these people, who must have had families, properties and business interests back home. They should have been panicking and demanding that armies march back to defend the homeland, there should have been fear and accusations flying. When it became clear that Alethkar was lost, there should have been disbelieving grief. _That_ would have demonstrated that the ballgame has changed. And, frankly, Adolin and/or Elokhar would have been perfect characters to explore these reactions and general change of the status quo. As it is, everybody is oddly unmoved by and accepting of this catastrophe, which, indeed could have completely and believably eclipsed Sadeas’s murder, if depicted properly.
I wholly agree with you that having Torol alive would have been even worse, as he was clearly already in Odium’s pocket by his last PoV in WoR (and quite a hateful and cruel person in the flashbacks), and would have been a far more calculated and dangerous enemy than Amaram, who didn’t do much of anything until the end. Sadeas troops, I feel, were mostly made susceptible to Odium because of the way that Torol had been running them for decades – very focused on contest and competition, widely open to the Thrill. Yes, there would have been some wounded sense of national/corporate pride over his murder and resultant anger, too, but in the end he wasn’t a man who was loved by the troops or who inspired deep loyalty. Even so, it seems odd that _all_ of them succumbed. You’d think that there would have been at least some hold-outs.
Gepeto:
I am with you re: Ialai’s connection to the Ghostbloods. First of all, there is no way that she could believe that Mraize was, indeed, one of her bodyguards. A woman like her would have necessarily been very careful about whom she would trust to guard her and we _know_ that Mraize was gallivanating all over the world, while showing up as her “guard” on a couple of important occasions. No way that he could have maintained his cover with such a schedule – bodyguards have pretty full days, after all and can’t vanish for days or weeks and then just re-appear as if nothing happened. So, Ialai knows that Mraize is somebody important and, given that she is supposed to have a very extensive and well-functioning spy network, likely even knows his affiliation. They are working together in _some_ way, regardless of what Mraize told Shallan.
Scath:
Ialai still has some resources. She has Sadeas treasury, which should be fairly significant, given their successes at gemheart hunts and general competence of the ruling couple. She may still have some people in the camps – in fact, she very likely does, as there was little reason for Torol to take along everybody, given that he intended to continue his power struggle with Dalinar and that 2 other highprinces who could be influenced remained behind. They are now ripe for Ialai’s manipulations. And, most importantly, Ialai has her network of spies and assassins, which could be very valuable to the Ghostbloods, seeing how the new Kholin monarch is very much not their friend. All in all, Ialai is a much more potentially valuable asset to them, than, say Lin Davar was. In fact, her loss of an army may actually make her more desirable to them, as that would make her more dependant on them and more vulnerable to pressure.
It would also be nice to have a female antagonist/villain, who is on-screen enough that she can be fleshed out sufficiently to be interesting – unlike Aesudan and Iyatil. I really hope that after unceremoniously burning some potentially promising antagonists in OB – like Amaram and Graves, not to mention Aesudan herself, Sanderson will provide a meaty alternative. Hopefully, one who won’t necessarily be in Odium’s grip, as the Fused and Taravangian already fill this niche.
Does anybody have any insight into Sebarial and Palona? Are they just regular Highpeople, or is there something more to them? It seems that I see them here and there, but we never really get past the surface.
@126 Isilel
Regarding the reaction of Alethkar’s falling, they did not know with certainty till the battle of Thayla through confirmation by Adolin, Kaladin, and Shallan. Elhokar was already dead at this point. By then it was far too late to do anything about it. All the individuals we were shown (Dalinar, Navani, Adolin, etc) were individuals in high office that had to deal with the fall out of that. There wasn’t time to think about reclaiming Alethkar when the enemy’s next move was on the table. Alethkar was a loss. Had they focused on that, they would have been playing catch up with Odium. They would have lost Thayla, then Kharbrant/Jah Keved and so on. Thayla as pointed out by Dalinar was now crucial. They had to shift their focus. The type of response you are referring to would make in my opinion more sense coming from the general soldiers, the families, and the light eyed officers. They lost their homes, their family, their loved ones. But again, there wasn’t time given the overarching narrative to show those people. War moves on whether you like it or not. Either keep up, or get rolled over. So they had to keep up.
Personally I do not feel the sheer fact that he was her body guard automatically means he is attached to her. It was shown repeatedly Ialai isn’t this incredible mastermind that other’s seem to believe she is. Her and Sadeas combined were able to outmaneuver other high princes, but he is lost. Maybe she is still traumatized over his death. Maybe she was just Sadeas’s informant network while Sadeas made the calls. Either way, she didn’t in Oathbringer. Considering Mraize is so high up in a Cosmere aware secret society, I think speaks volumes on his capabilities to get where he needs to be. How many times have we seen messages to Shallan suddenly appears in her belongings? Or know of her movements? I believe in Mraize’s skill as shown in the books far more than Ialai’s. Finally don’t forget what was on Mraize’s shoulder the entire time he is around Ialai. A very interesting “chicken”. Although not expressly confirmed, it could well be an Aviar, that gives Mraize all sorts of abilities, such as “soothing” a certain brightlady’s suspicions? Even then from what in the book we have seen of Ialai and Mraize, personally I do not think he even needed that. Sorry but I do not personally agree him simply being her bodyguard is enough to prove he is supporting Ialai.
That is true. it would be interesting to have a strong female antagonist. I just do not agree given what we know of Ialai, that she fits the bill, nor do I feel just because we lack other options that it must be her.
Sorry, few more things to add. After they moved to Urithiru there is no more influx of gemhearts for Sadeas. The gemhearts were used to provide food in Urithiru working the soulcasters in overdrive to provide for the people. So that reserve was depleted quickly. Also keep in mind Sadeas was doing the hunts, but still turning in the gemhearts as ordered so he could flout the new rules, but still get away with it. So it was the crown that was holding onto them. As to the people in the camps. it is said repeatedly in the book that the Highprinces abandoned the warcamps. That the only highprince or two left were expanding into the other abandoned camps, and that people were looting them. Adolin said Sadeas abandoned his camp. That was what pissed Adolin off so much. Is that now Sadeas chose to “listen”. Ok, Ialai’s great network of assasins, so great the best that could be done is pulling the release on the bridge hoping the highprince gets caught on it. Then no other attempt. Ialai was embarrassed herself by the failure. Mraize knows everything going on in Urithiru. He even knew about Sja-anat the moment Shallan got back. What would Ialai’s network have access to that Mraize not only knows with his own network, but probably knows 100 times more? Everything you say Ialai could offer Mraize, he already has in spades and then some. Lin is a faulty example. They were using him to put him in place of the current highprince. Ialai is a highlady who is losing her place. Mraize said himself she is unwieldy and too selfish to accomplish the goals they would want done.
I’m sorry but anyway I slice it, I just see no rationale that makes sense to the narrative that Ialai and Mraize are linked. But that is my own opinion. YMMV
@AndrewHB I don’t understand why you feel the plot had to be resolved in Oathbringer. There are still two more books for this first arc, don’t you think you should finish the book before complaining about unfulfilled expectations, for all we know the fall out may happen in the next book when there would be more alethi politics.
@130, telema:
Andrew mentioned a message of mine in #125, in which I said … that. We all agree.
#125. AndrewHB: You confused me. You came on so negative, it sounded like you really didn’t care for Oathbringer. I wondered, what is he doing here, where fans are attempting to pull the most from Sanderson’s writing. I guess that I am not as picky as you are. Sure there are situations that I do not care for the author’s solution . Adolin’s killing of Sadeas was not one of them. My gut reaction was, it is about time. Maybe you would have liked if Sadeas had been killed in a formal duel. I am happy that Adolin’s role is expanding. Sadeas had become a cartoon of himself and needed to go. He actually served a great purpose, by helping to expose the unmade.
In case you are curious, the character, who drives me crazy is Shallan and her multiple personalities. The fact she uses them to hide from almost everything. I want to shake her and say, get over it. However, there is no way that issue stops me from enjoying the book.
@116: I am with you on the love triangle. We will get ample time to discuss under all of its flavor as the re-read moves forward, but my perception is it is done and gone. And this is one aspect of OB I am NOT disappointed with.
@119: I am not sure what you are looking for… There are no solid fail-proof arguments which supports my thoughts. They essentially what they are: thoughts. As this point in time within the story, we do know Mraize had an interest in Ialai. Since we do not know what this interest may have been, I find speculating it is meaningless and no longer relevant, is going one step further than the story itself.
I personally see no reasons why Mraize interest in Ialai has come to pass due to her current predicament. Ialai was presented to us as cunning incredibly smart and very dangerous woman masterminding a vast network of assassins. She also received this letter, at the end of WoR, which contained “important news”, but was never shared with us, the readers. I find there are more than a few elements left within the narrative for Ialai to remain an important and interesting player.
For the rest, yes, it did cross my mind her purpose may turn out to mirror the Tanalan Jr betrayal by having her attempting to Adolin’s life. I however find the “Adolin will die” discussions have gotten quite old. Readers have been speculating on his impeding death since WoK. Seems to me the character has more to offer alive than dead. Also seems to me killing the one character all readers are expecting to die isn’t such an interesting plot point: better to kill out the one character no one saw coming. Say Eshonai.
@120: I do not think I ever said Sadeas’s death didn’t affect the “narrative”, my qualms with it is it didn’t affect “Adolin’s character”. I also find it is the last of many story arcs revolving around Adolin which ultimately only served to fueled narrative arcs into other characters. After three books, I’ll admit I am dead tire of Adolin being used in such ways and, yeah, I do wish for him to have a story arc which doesn’t exist for sole purpose of creating story arcs for others.
This being said, I understand Brandon needed Sadeas to die for his narrative to unfold the way it did. I also understand Adolin was the best placed character to kill him, but the whole scene was written in such a climatic way, the lack of follow-up truly didn’t work out for me. Had Brandon add more Adolin viewpoints, had he made the readers really go into his thoughts to understand his motivations, see how they fit within the narrative, had I not finish the book thinking Adolin is nothing more than a narrative tool, once again, then maybe it would have worked out better for me, but YMMV.
@121: I think the real reason Jasnah/Renarin are not getting viewpoints now is because they will get them later. One thing Brandon learned with WoK Prime is how having too important focus character clogged the narrative. He then made the decision to postponed some arcs to future books.
@123: The “crowd pleaser” comment was referring to the “Adolin murdering Sadeas” story arc, not the entire book. As I said in one of my previous posts, while Tor.com seems, on average, relatively pleased with it, I have read more than a few comments both on the 17th Shard and on Reddit coming from readers disliking it up to various levels and for various reasons. I thought it was relevant to point out this is one cliff-hanger Brandon did not solve up in ways which worked for all of his readership. I however agree the discussion got a bit heavy and I apologize for this. I did cover other topics of discussion as well, but this other discussion did overwhelm most of it. I’ll admit I cannot hide the fact I wasn’t satisfied with how this arc was dealt with in OB. One of my goals, with this re-read, is to try to re-positioned myself towards the book. I felt I read the entire book hoping for a denouement which never came: it made the rest of it fell flat. I hope with slowly re-reading the book I’ll be able to gain another perspective, but I am afraid OB is unlikely to become my favorite SA book.
@126: I am with you on Ialai and I agree with everything you say. I find there is something fascinating about a real smart-ass villainous female character and I’ve been hoping for Ialai to be IT. Mind, it could still go many ways, but I definitely agree on Ialai not being exactly resource-less.
@129: We do not have the full detail on the movements of the Sadeas troops. As Isilel pointed out, the story doesn’t say how many troops Sadeas had which weren’t at Thaylenah. Even if there aren’t many, Ialai’s force never were armies, this was Torol’s domain, her’s was spying, assassination and political manipulation. In OB, she was destabilized because of her husband’s death. This won’t last.
@130: The plot in question may not be over, this is true, but I personally find it hard to keep on hoping for more.
#133. Gepeto:. I accept your apology for the hot and heavy negative discussion and make a small suggestion. If that is a topic that you want to discuss in detail, maybe the posters from 17th Shard and Reddit will be more receptive to strong negative posting. In my case, I love the series so far as a whole and it is way too early to be assigning favorites to any of the volumes. Each has many strong points and a few weak ones, so I can’t decide among them. Maybe my standards are a lot lower than yours, but I normally do not have any agenda when I am reading a new book. It is what it is. If it is written by a favorite author, I just sit back and enjoy a trip to that world. As was said above in another post, the final result of Sadaes’s murder was that it created a part of a pattern that helped flesh out the unmade from the basement library . It was killing innocent people and that stopped. It also got rid of a bad guy, who had become a cartoon. He was becoming very one-sided and predictable.
@133 Gepeto
Sorry I will clarify. As I said in a prior post, I could state that Roshone would kill Rayse, take up Odium, while Dalinar unites Honor. They then fight with Roshone/Odium killing Dalinar. Adolin takes the shard from Dalinar and then defeats Roshone/Rayse. We know it is possible to kill a shardholder. We know Roshone is a very hate filled man. We know Dalinar on some level has access to Honor’s power by making a perpendicularity. And we know Adolin loves Dalinar very much and would seek to avenge his father. So there are no in book proofs that can say with certainty that this cannot happen. However, based on my personal reading of the evidence in the book, it is a stretch. It is unlikely in my opinion that Roshone would be able to gather the resources to find out the way to kill Rayse. The information exists, somewhere. But what we know about Roshone in the book shows it would not make sense in my opinion for him to be able to get that information and then act on it. Same too with the other parts of that example. So yes, we agree, there are no solid fail-proof sources that prove what I say, nor what you say. However, I merely maintain that I feel based on what we see in the books, it is highly unlikely. Your, and Isilel’s arguments do not have enough in book references to convince me it is probable. I see the in book references weighing in the opposite direction personally. You both are more than welcome to hope for it. So why am I replying to you and Isilel to say as much? Because this is a forum of discussion, and I am expressing why those reasons that work for you, do not work for me.
I personally see multiple reasons why Mraize has no interest in Ialai and have listed them all. Ialai was presented to us as cunning briefly in the first book, partially mentioned next to Sadeas in the second book, and was curb stomped by Jasnah repeatedly in the third book. Personally I read Dalinar’s difficulty with Ialai being due to his utter lack of skill with politics. Once Navani showed up, Team Dalinar began to handle her slightly better, and once Jasnah entered the picture, she became a non issue. I feel this supports the zooming out of the narrative, away from Alethi politics, in favor of the world at large.
This leads back to the point I made regarding Taravangian and Ialai. I feel it would be redundant to use Ialai in this manner, as Taravangian functions this way in every way regardless the sex. Would I like to see a main female antagonist done well? Sure! I would love it! But that does not read as Ialai to me. I see Malata turning on Taravangian and striking out on her own to become a central villian, and or organizing other spren that felt betrayed to bond and create a counter radiant organization bent on working against Dalinar and co. Nale has sided with the Voidbringers, why not a third faction of radiants to further the shades of gray? Whole orders divided and at war, with Malata at its heart. That sounds cool to me even as that by itself is a stretch. It is still more interesting/probable to me than Ialai at this stage of the narrative. This also shows we can have a great female villain without having to depend on Ialai. Hell a brand new female character could be introduced and end up an amazing villain. I just don’t feel it has to be Ialai because she is all we “currently” have. The “important news” she received at the end of WoR was that Aladar, who up until this point was Sadeas’s man, had chosen to join up with Dalinar to venture off into the shattered plains to fight the parshendi. This is what I am referring to evidence in book leaning a certain way. Had I not known what you were referring to, it could be implied to mean all sorts of things that support your belief that Ialai will be a threat. However, that is not the case. No big mystery. It was big news because it was Sadeas being betrayed by one of his most loyal highprinces. The loss of power had already began here. This shows as per the narrative Sadeas’s sun is already beginning to set. I guess part of it is you feel she will “remain” an “important and interesting player”, while I feel she wasn’t much of one to begin with. She was half of the Sadeas whole. Now he is gone, her army collapsed, and she is disgraced. But YMMV.
You are entitled and welcome to feel Adolin would serve a better purpose alive than dead. That is not what I am debating. You were arguing that Ialai is still a threat to Dalinar and co. I said the only way I could see that playing out from Ialai as per the narrative we have seen from her is for her to attempt to kill Adolin. If her assassin fails again, then she is shown to be inept again, and just comes off foolish and silly (which Jasnah has called her to her face in meetings with world leaders when she shut Ialai down). So the only way I see she could continue as the character we have seen, and be a villain/threat, is if she assassinates Adolin and succeeds. I see no other avenues for her.
I am sorry, I could have sworn I read you state somewhere that you felt it would not matter who killed Sadeas based on how things played out in Oathbringer. That you felt betrayed by Sanderson that he set up a huge arc for Adolin by choosing him specifically to be the one to strike the killing blow, yet did not have it focus on Adolin. That because of the way it played out, Sanderson should have picked a random soldier, or a bridge 4 member to do it. I was merely responding to what I thought you wrote by saying it makes sense for the greater narrative for it to have to be Adolin do the killing and it have to be Sadeas to be the one killed. But I apologize if I recalled incorrectly.
I understand your pain in wanting a bigger part for Adolin. I wish for you it was not so, however once again from all I have seen of WoB and the narrative at hand, it seems the foil is the part Adolin is to play. I get it upsets you, but personally I do not feel that fact harms the book. I personally enjoyed Oathbringer and I look forward to using these re-read posts to appreciate it further and delve deeper into its secrets. Hell, I love Jasnah and Renarin so much but I will have to wait at least 9 years before I get to see anything deeper on them. But I love Brandon’s work and feel the ride till then is worth it :)
Yep, that is the WoB I am referring to. There is so much to those characters that he cannot begin without focusing on them. I do personally love those two more than how I feel about Adolin, but I do understand the love of Adolin. I just feel Oathbringer treated him well. but as you said YMMV
I would love to hear your thoughts subjects other than Adolin regarding Oathbringer however. Not to shut you down, or say you cannot talk about Adolin, but I feel you dig so deeply into his character, I would be interested to see you dig as deep into other characters and see what you find.
And again the final point I just have to disagree on. I feel we have ample evidence in the book that shows the state of Sadeas’s troops and I feel I have provided ample evidence as to why what happened to Tanalan and Dalinar are different which is why they resulted in different numbers/results. But I wish you the best all the same
Scath @129:
Actually, mass freakout should have started as soon as they got the first new highstorm at Urithiru and were able to restore their communications. I.e. in the middle of Part 1. By that point, the parshmen have transformed and marched off towards Alethkar – that alone should have caused panic and prompted demands to do something, particularly from the Highprinces whose lands were closest to the Shattered Plains. Then add to that the news of the riots in Kholinar and the Queen’s apparent disappearance – I don’t remember if they learned about it in late WoR, but even if they did, the situation persisting while the newly transformed Voidbringers streamed into Alethkar and the parshmen already there were expected to have changed too, should have frightened the Alethi at Urithiru and in the camps. Then add to that communication being gradually cut to other cities and regional capitals… both nobles and commoners should have been terrified and screaming for the leadership to _do_ something. Instead, only Elhokar seemed to be somewhat concerned, and even for him it seemed more about proving himself than anything else.
This indifferent attitude from the Alethi seemed very unnatural to me and exploded my willing suspension of disbelief. IMHO, it was the Oathbringer’s greatest weakness. I liked the book a lot, by the way, – Dalinar is my favorite character along with Jasnah, I liked Kaladin’s plot and I thought that what Sanderson was trying to do with Shallan was interesting, though I am reserving judgement on whether it was actually fully successful until the next installments. I have just re-read WoK and WoR, and I have to say that WoK in particular really improved with hindsight, as Shallan’s and Dalinar’s parts come through as so much richer knowing what I now know than it did on the first read.
But my current impression is that OB lacks connective tissue. Each arc by itself is good to great, but there is not enough interaction between characters and some of the emotional beats are missing, while the others are great. Which is why I feel that Adolin and possibly Elhokar should have had (more) PoVs in parts 1-3, to bridge things and show a believable picture of their world shattering. After all, neither Kaladin nor Shallan were particularly invested in Alethkar, Kholinar, how things used to be etc. – only observing the fall from their PoVs made things less visceral than they should have been, IMHO.
Anyway, I aknowledge that Sanderson may have just relegated some of these issues to the next book, but it did feel a bit artificial to me how they were glossed over in OB.
I am not sure what you have against Ialai ;), but let’s agree to disagree. IMHO, they started to use Lin Davar when he was very much down and on the brink of losing everything, including his family’s lives, if they couldn’t pay their debts, and he was a much less promisng material than she is. She could do something else against Kholins rather than killing Adolin, too – she can join and fan Vorinist opposition – convincing the ardents to just up and walk away from heretic queen’s service would be a major blow, for instance. She could kill Navani. She could manipulate the 2 Highprinces in the camps into something destructive. Etc., etc.
@136 Isilel
Again, you are seeing from the heads of state, not the populace. Would you like the leader of your country to panic and start running around calling for troops to be thrown around willy nilly without proper intel? The order of operations were this:
1. rumors of riots of Kholinar, communication cut off
2. Kaladin investigating hearthstone and freed parshmen
3. Kaladin realizes they are gathering in groups with Fused
4. Confirmation when he returns that that is occurring across the entire world.
All parshmen are leaving, and gathering at separate locations. With only one windrunner, how do you track the entirety? They know the group in Alethkar are traveling towards Kholinar. They do not know the number, the resources, nor their intentions. Just like they do not know regarding the parshmen in Azir, Jah Keved, and so on. The parshmen across the globe have done. It is a global issue and must be handled globally, which is exactly what Dalinar went about doing. Next, how exactly do you intend for Dalinar and the armies of the highprinces to get to Kholinar before the parshmen arrive? Kholinar’s oathgate was closed. There were no other oathgates near by, and the only means of moving quickly from location to location was Kaladin, the at that time sole full radiant windrunner. So people can run around screaming all they want, but from the leaders perspectives that have to make the choices, there was nothing that could be done at that time except gather resources and prepare. So in conclusion Dalinar and Co. acted perfectly in line with their positions, and the information they had. Elhokar had to be continually cautioned to think reasonably and think things through. Are you saying the king that multiple people wanted assassinated because of his ineptitude would be someone’s lead to follow? Elhokar said it himself, bring Kaladin so he can look to him for advice and learn from him. We are shown that Elhokar is how a ruler should not act, but you would have the other characters emulate him?
I am not here to argue opinions on what characters should have more time with. I would love more time with Jasnah and Renarin. I would love to see more of the magic systems. But because I did not get what I wanted, does not mean there is a problem with the narrative. Kaladin, and Shallan were the ones with the means to accomplish what needed to be done in Kholinar. They were the main actors. They had the abilities to deal with what was thrown at them. Had Adolin gone to the palace as a messenger instead of Shallan, He would have died. She was run through. She could heal from it. He could not. Kaladin had to investigate the guard because again, if this mysterious shardbearer turned out to be a herald or a radiant, it would make sense for another radiant to confront them. Not a king that the herald or radiant could have no fealty to. Not a random highprince’s son. I am not saying these things to disparage Elhokar nor Adolin but point out how those characters could have been viewed by other characters in the narrative had places been switched. So then it comes that it should have been focused on Elhokar and Adolin at the parties. But then Vivienna popping up, and the Heart of the Revel being an issue later would have come from left field. These things were required. Adolin and Elhokar talking to nobles in my opinion was not. Could it have added more to the narrative? Sure! But with the time alotted, with events moving forward, in my opinion it was not necessary.
Please feel free to re-read my comments again. This is nothing personal against Ialai, and me stating my thoughts on how based on in book evidence I do not see it being probable as her being a threat should not mean I hold anything against her. I think I did quite a good job relating what I have seen with in book references as objectively as possible what her resources and capabilities are.
Right, but again we have to look at their goals. Lin was down on his luck, and they helped him so he could take the place of the ailing highprince and give them a foothold in Jah Keved. Ialai is already a high lady. Raising her back up does not give them anything they don’t already have. They do not need her spy network, they already have one in spades. They do not need a highlady to fight against Dalinar. They have nothing against him and they have a radiant “working” for them. They do not care about Alethi politics. The only power struggle of note to them is between the voidbringers and the radiants. And before you say they cared regarding Lin, that was before the voidbringers returned. Ialai has nothing that would gain them more info on the voidbringers. Ialai has no access to radiants nor is one herself. They are concerned regarding the balance of power between the radiants and the voidbringers. They do not want a major blow to either side. They want to keep both sides equal so they can take advantage and turn the powers to their own ends. The two highprinces in the warcamps are busy expanding their own camps, and extorting Dalinar for resources. Ialai showing back up at the warcamps would only be seen as competition that they would seek to stamp out. Her trying to kill Navani falls into the same problem I put forward regarding Adolin. She either has to succeed, or she comes off inept and comical. It has to be Adolin, because it makes no sense for Ialai to have revenge on Navani when it was Adolin that killed Sadeas.
Sorry but I feel compelled to point this out. You felt I had something personal against Ialai by commenting how I have but I am starting to feel like you have personal interests in wanting Ialai to become more dominant, so are coloring the narrative to support your interpretation. We all have our own opinions, but when you start accusing me of bias, I think its time to also examine oneself.
@126 I agree that Ialai still has potential. She doesn’t need to be with the Ghostbloods to cause problems. She has assassins and could well just want revenge. I don’t think she really cares WHO physically killed Sadeas but believes completely that Dalinar arraigned it. But he is a Radiant and Adolin isn’t. What better way to hurt Dalinar than to kill his heir? Shards and plate are no defense against poison. She could still be very dangerous.
Overall, I thought that everyone had a much more low key response to all the horror than I would have expected. Perhaps the Alethi are just that contained.
@134: We all are different readers and what works for one does not work for the other. I wouldn’t refer to it as “personal standards” being either “higher or lower”, but I would instead speak of “personal preferences” when it comes to narrative. I think Isilel @136 has a very good explanation as to why some us feel the way we do. It isn’t so much we are suddenly disliking Brandon nor the series, it is more a matter of one book, within a long series, which didn’t flow down well for some of us. I agree about the character arcs seeming too individual, too separated and I also agree the decision not to give viewpoints to Adolin/Elhokar, during part 3, definitely removed some of the tension. It is true Kaladin/Shallan have no emotional investment within the city, it was odd Brandon didn’t use Adolin more in order to make those scenes more poignant.
@135: I think we are unlikely to agree on the matter of Ialai. It isn’t I disagree with you, I definitely agree the story could spin within the ways you are suggesting, but I just don’t find it more probable than an alternate narrative where Ialai still has a role to play. I feel the current narrative doesn’t allow us to conclude she is irrelevant, but obviously your millage vary and I respect that. I definitely agree to disagree with you and I am more than willing to keep on RAFOing to see how this one turns out.
You hit the nail right within the center when you said “had anyone else killed Sadeas, the outcome would have been the same”. This is exactly how I feel. If you feel it makes more sense, narratively speaking, to have Adolin than a random soldier do it, I feel the lack of outcome for his character definitely made the whole arc feel unsatisfying. Of course, as I said several times now, I do realize not everyone feels the way I do and I do respect other readers views, but it didn’t work out for me. It isn’t so much I expected/wanted a strong focus on Adolin following the event, but I did expect the fact he did the killing to be relevant to at least ONE story element. It was to none. Hence, to me, it was a wasted cliff-hanger and wasted tension.
Adolin is indeed a foil and a narrative tool more than a character which is why I strongly doubts any story arc which appears like it revolves around him will actually… revolve around him. If after WoR I had strong hopes Adolin’s days as a foil were over, I no longer believe it is the case. I now firmly believe Adolin will remain a side-kick, a foil and a tool to further the narrative arcs of other characters, nothing less, but nothing more. Mind, there will always be readers to appreciate a good cheery side-kick, but this isn’t exactly what I had in mind nor is it a character archetype I personally find interesting to read.
I do dig into other characters, but none have come anywhere close to catch my interest as Adolin. I wish it weren’t the case, but it isn’t something I can control. I will do my best to focus on other narrative aspects. I however do not find Jasnah nor Renarin remotely as interesting as Adolin, but I guess that’s just me.
On the side note, my personal thoughts are the whole Kholinar arc dragged. Having Shallan/Kaladin doing their solo missions didn’t work out for me because I felt Adolin/Elhokar should have been more readily used. After all. they actually know the city. As Isilel pointed out, the narrative arcs felt disjointed one from another, there was no cohesive glue to make it come to life, but these are just my thoughts.
#139 Gepeto: Yes, there are differences in the way a reader approaches a passage. I try very hard to approach each new read with great hopes that I will enjoy the passage, although that is not a criteria for my attention. I will give you an example. I became a George RR Martin fan in March 2010, when I read my first Hedge Knight story in the anthology Warriors. Fairly soon after, my daughter introduced me to A Game of Thrones. I found that I loved all of his writing in that universe and have long since grown tired waiting for almost seven years for new material. Within his main series, he has one book, his fourth that some of his fans do not like. He spent a fair amount of writing talking about Brienne of Tarth and Ser Jaime Lannister wandering around the countryside, each with their own mission. They mingled a lot with the common folk, and the pace was slower than than some of his other writing. I liked the story and since A Dance with Dragons showed up the next year, I wasn’t among the grumblers, who waited between books. However, all we have seen out of him lately are “Histories” that are written in a newspaper/history book style. They are terrible writing, but as a reader, I am still purchasing them to read his stories.
At seventy one, I have read thousands of books, with some of them being not well writing. Not something that Sanderson suffers from. I guess that I am old school enough that I realize that the author is writing the books, not me. Normally, they have a reason for killing a character and a good reason why it is not revealed to all. I’m not the author, so it is not my place to rewrite the chapters. That is the author’s task, not mine.
@138 goddessimho
I respect your opinion, but from what I have seen, I personally really do not feel she has the kind of assassins that could kill Dalinar. He has stormlight healing. He is on his way to getting shardplate. Being dropped from a bridge no longer has the same lethality that it used to. That is why I agreed with Gepeto and Iselil that she would need to be allied with the Ghostbloods to be a threat to Dalinar. However where I disagreed is that I did not feel we were given enough indication in the book to feel that connection was probable nor that Mraize would desire a confrontation with Dalinar. Yes she could, with the resources she has, send an assassin to kill Adolin. I totally agree. However I feel like that is the only way she could be a threat. Also as I have said, if she sends an assassin after Adolin, it would in my opinion have to succeed. Otherwise what purpose would it serve in the narrative? What would a failed assassination attempt on Adolin accomplish? We have already seen him come close to death in a more meaningful moment with Maya. We have also already seen a wounded Adolin be healed by Renarin twice (broken wrist, and near death), so it would not serve to bring the brothers closer. Poison also, although effective, would not bring anything to the narrative. Again if it was prevented at the last moment, saving Adolin’s life from poison would not build anything for his character nor the narrative. So we are in agreement in so far as yes Ialai could still be a threat to Adolin specifically, but I am of the belief that that threat would have to succeed for it to make any sense resulting in a much beloved character (clearly from this page alone nonetheless the many others) shuffling off this mortal coil.
@139 Gepeto
No problem Gepeto. I did not expect us to agree regarding Ialai. I totally understand that we are reading the narrative differently, and you are entitled to your opinion on it. We both laid out why we feel we each feel our own interpretation is more probable than the other. So as you said agree to disagree. However I will reply to the other points you made for sake of discussion.
I understand in your opinion it is odd that Brandon chose Kaladin and Shallan to focus on in those scenes rather than Adolin. I personally disagree due to the reasons I included in a prior post, but I will sum it up quickly now: They had the abilities needed to confront the threats in the city, and they were uniquely suited as Radiants to discover the over arching plot points (the Unmade, Vivienna, and the Queen). Elhokar and Adolin were not, so they were not the focus. Again in my opinion.
I must confess this part I am confused and might need to go back and reread. So I thought the order of operations were this:
1. I thought you made a post stating anyone could have killed Sadeas to accomplish what was needed for the overarching plot
2. I replied to this showing why in my opinion, it had to be Sadeas killed (to bring the attention of the main cast to the double murders), and it had to be Adolin (because it was only him that made sense to have the motivation to kill Sadeas, the means to kill Sadeas, and the capability to remain uncaught for so long)
3. You stated that you did not state that.
4. You are now stating that is how you feel.
5. I am lost lol
So now I will reply to your current post arguing anyone could have killed Sadeas. A random soldier would not have the means to murder Sadeas. A random soldier would not have had the background leading up to provide a proper motivation to kill Sadeas. Did he lose someone in the Tower? Who did he lose in the Tower to result in such a personal vendetta to disobey Dalinar, a highprince held in such high esteem by his men, and loved so much? The random soldier would literally come off as 2-dimensional. Enter in soldier john smith “storms i really hate that Sadeas!” ::::stabs in the eye, then disappears for the rest of the novel:::: How and why was the soldier able to elude capture? Why that specific random soldier? Do you see now why I feel that would read as a push of a button to summon an ACME anvil? There isn’t any background or development for that character other than captioned in the movie credits as “random soldier than killed Sadeas”. Adolin on the other hand had been foreshadowed through two whole massive tomes to want Sadeas dead. No one else would make sense to kill Sadeas. So this leads us to in my opinion our real disagreement in interpretation. You took the cliffhanger to mean it had to develop Adolin. I took the cliffhanger to mean it was to develop the great conflict including the world. That is why I feel you left the cliffhanger as falling flat, while I left the cliffhanger feeling it all linked up.
I respect your feelings on Adolin. I feel he is not diminished as the character he is by moving the overall story, or narrative of other characters forward. If anything, if he continues to function as thus, it will be unlikely he will die, nor leave the narrative for some time, which I am sure comes to sound bittersweet to you. You will still get Adolin, but not as you wish him. Me conversely am looking forward to after 9 years of waiting at least, to getting to know Jasnah and Renarin better while still fearing they will die between now and then. That resulting in me not seeing them at all till I am in my 40s. Love of characters ever is a double edged blade.
I replied to this point earlier, but to add one more thing. It is true Adolin and Elhokar know the city better than any of the other characters. They were used for exactly that. It is because of them that they were able to hole up at the tailors. It was because of them they were able to make contact with the local nobility and gather additional men. It was also because of them (even from Adolin’s PoV here), that they were able to navigate the palace. Every instance where their knowledge and skills would benefit, was an instance focused on them in my opinion. Just the balance was every other instance where Kaladin’s and Shallan’s skills/abilities were needed focused on them instead of Adolin and Elhokar. To me this makes sense based on the narrative.
@140: The beauty of reading is we all are into it for various reasons and, being different individuals, we all have our own ways to appreciate the narrative. I would classify myself as an escapism: whenever I a reading a book, I am looking forward to have my mind travel to a new world, to meet new characters. Once my mind travels to this world, it takes hold of it, it shapes it and, yes, it will re-write part of it in various ways. Brandon once said readers all are welcome to revise the story, in their head, to befit their personal preferences and I have sure not been shy of doing it myself.
Hence, it isn’t a matter of not respecting nor not appreciating what an author chooses to write or how he decides to tell his story, I would rather say it is part of my own personal reading experience. The more I create alternate narrative, the more I try to shuffle the story into various ways, the more I am actually enjoying a book.
It’s just… how I read and my appreciation of a book isn’t necessarily proportional of the appreciation this book is getting within the fantasy community. In other words, I might not enjoy a universally praised book just as I might come to love a shunned upon one. Tastes are just very personal and, as a reader, I am emotional. Books which manage to create an emotional link in between myself and their world/characters will steer much more passion into myself than books not managing it. Sometimes, I will get engrossed in a book for a few days, weeks, years, decades. It is never the same, but each and every time, I will test, in my head, alternate narrative or I will replay mt favorite parts.
This is just how I am, as a reader and I know it may sound odd, but to me this is an important part of the reading experience.
On the side record, I liked Dance with Dragons though I recalled finding Brienne and Asha’s arc tedious to read. Odd thing is I never were a Brienne fan before the TV series aired, but TV Briennne… What a casting! Gwendoline Christie is so amazing, the character became one of my favorite. As for the book, Jaime and Sansa have always been my favorite arcs. I guess you can say there is a consistency within my tastes.
@141:I am lost too… :-O
When I said anyone could have murdered Sadeas and achieve the same result, I meant the fact Adolin himself did just didn’t impact the narrative. The act in itself did, but who did it, did not. So while I do agree with you it would have been impractical to have a random soldier do it, the point I was trying to raise is how having Adolin, specifically, kill Sadeas just didn’t turn out into a narrative point. In other words, it wasn’t important to the main story arc nor was it important to Adolin’s overall character.
I think you are hitting part of the problem, at least, from my perspective. The fact this specific arc didn’t turn out as I expected shouldn’t impact me the way it did, after all, narrative never go down the way we expect them to. That’s the whole fun of reading, getting surprise, reading the unexpected, but this one bothered me. Why? Because it was about Adolin. Because it was the only story arc Adolin’s character had and it turned out being about Shallan. Mind a story arc going from one character to the other shouldn’t be something which bothers me, but it does here. Why? Because Adolin got nothing in exchange. It was his only story arc and it was taken away from him. In replacement, he sank into the background and got no purpose other than being a foil for the remainder of the book except perhaps the last few pages.
Does it diminish the character the fact he’s just a foil? Yes and no. Adolin is a regular recurrent viewpoint character. I personally find it odd to read the viewpoint of a foil, of a character having no narrative purposes other than contrasting the other character and advancing the narrative. Reading a character stuck on a static loop, not progressing nor changing nor evolving nor having a story arc is bothersome to me. It feels as if he is incomplete. Simplistic. When he could have been so much more.
Arguably, you are entirely right. Adolin is unlikely to ever be the character I wanted, thought, he could be. Brandon enjoys him as a foil and plot device, I don’t. This truth is so crushing, so hard to bear, so disheartening, so painful, it is really hard not to allow it to taint my entire reading experience.
On the matter of the Kholinar arc, while I do agree each character was used given their skill sets, I still maintain the narrative would have flown better with either Adolin or Elhokar’s viewpoints. Elhokar’s might have been too spoiler-y, with his spren, and ruin his later “moment”, but Adolin’s were definitely missing, IMHO.
On the matter of Ialai, you make a valid point: why have Ialai be a player if not to kill Adolin? An assassination attempt could be used in many ways to further the narrative… It could ultimately lead to the Sadeas princedome being overthrown and given to someone sympathetic to our leads. It could put Adolin in a situation where he does say his oaths. I mean, if he does revive his Blade, he’ll have to say oaths, at some point, but given how his character was written, this seems unlikely. Why? Because he does not think he is worthy of being a Radiant, hence it’ll make massive development, IMHO, for him to start saying oaths. This could be it. Or maybe it plays a role within the Dalinar/Adolin relationship. Or it ties back to Evi’s past if Ialai seeks allies in Iriali. Or it ties back to Shallan and the Ghostbloods. There are many possibilities, we just aren’t aware of all of them.
I wasn’t able to comment until now but I wanted to comment on the moral and legal rational for Sadeas’s death. First, if Sadeas can send assassins as long as he has plausible deniability, then in world Adolin can expect the same. However, between the assassins and trying to wipe out the Kholinar army, I consider them to be at war. I don’t even consider what Adolin did to be assassination. I think its a situation of two warring scouts unexpectedly running into each other. It doesn’t matter their rank, Adolin didn’t preplan to kill him, seek him out, or ambush him. Adolin took the opportunity to kill a valid enemy target during combat while the two sides were at war, even if that war was mostly hidden to keep the kingdom together.
If we are going by our world’s morality, then Sadeas committed treason on WoK and then epic treason during a world ending apocalypse, which should have its own level of punishment. I am confident that with sufficient evidence, you could convict him in a court of law. So both in world and out, I think Adolin did the right thing and that it shouldn’t even count as assassination.
@142 Gepeto
I think what Wetlander is saying (correct me if I am wrong), is there is nothing wrong with revising the story in your head to cause it to be more enjoyable to you. Hell Brandon did himself with other books, which is why he came up with the idea of Hoid. Totally go for it. Come up with as far off the walls stories in your head as you want. I think where the disconnect is, is when the alternatve narrative in your mind does not match the one in the book, you have stated on numerous occasions in this thread as in many others that you feel that means the narrative has failed. That Brandon needs to re-examine his writing process and change it to be more in line with your expectations. I hope this is not considered a personal attack by you nor the moderators. I feel I am only quoting what you have written extensively here and elsewhere. If there is any question to my references, I would be happy to copy paste quotes from the very posts I am referring to. So to reiterate and sum up in one. By all means create an alternative narrative that makes you happy, but that does not mean the narrative in the book is problematic because it does not match it nor does it mean Brandon has failed as a writer of this book. He as the author, must write the story as he deems best. To change it to match your narrative would result in it being fanfiction. To be clear, I am not using that term in a derogatory manner. The only reason I have used the term is because stormlight then ceases to be by Brandon Sanderson, and instead of the story as per Gepeto, typed by Brandon Sanderson. But I am going to step away from this portion of the conversation as in past threads this has not ended well. I do not intend to attack anyone or have the conversation devolve. So to go back to the narrative at hand.
I guess at this point too we must agree to disagree. I feel the point I made being that without Adolin killing Sadeas we would not have the double murders coming to the main cast’s attention, and all the fallout thereafter would not have occurred was evidence enough that Adolin himself impacted the narrative. It did not impact the narrative by giving him PoV chapters. It did not impact the narrative by focusing on Adolin, but both of those were expectations you had coming from the end of Words of Radiance. That is not the only expectation to have based on that cliffhanger. Also considering Brandon subverted that expectation to turn our gaze to the wider problem I think was a clever twist. In all the predictions on the forums, not a one saw this coming. I think that is brilliant. If we all knew exactly what would come next, what is the point of reading the book? But I digress, back to Adolin. Considering it lead to us meeting in person our first unmade, considering it led to a big moment for Shallan as she confronts Re-shephir, considering it was the claimed reason for the voidspren to be able to slip right into Sadeas’s men, and considering it was the reason Adolin decided to defy his father of the kingship, I feel it was most definitely important to the main story, and to Adolin. Adolin did develop. Yes he is still a foil, but he is a developed foil. Just like Lopen is a developed comedic relief. You do not have to change the function of a character for them to have development in their personal story. You disagree, and I respect that. Just from what I read of the narrative, I feel this was handled well.
Adolin had many story arcs, the only thing is they tended to be linked to other characters. That is his purpose. That is why “he was born”. Dalinar’s internal struggle Brandon felt was too internal, so he kept Adolin alive in order to play off that. So too with Oathbringer. Adolin’s PoV when Renarin healed his wrist so we could see Renarin’s uncertainty and fear of his own powers, while not giving away Glys’s true nature too soon. Adolin’s PoV in shadesmar on how Shallan and Kaladin are handling the fall of Kholinar. Sadeas’s death was in my opinion never only Adolin’s. Sadeas and Dalinar were rivals. Sadeas spent all of Way of Kings and Words of Radiants undercutting and attacking Dalinar. He used Adolin when he could against Dalinar, but Dalinar was always the focus. He was always the goal. So it wasn’t Adolin’s story arc taken away. It was another action on Adolin’s part to move the story forward. This understanding for me, has caused me to appreciate and enjoy Adolin’s character where I would not have before. Just like the recent revelations with Renarin has made me love the character more. Just like seeing more of Jasnah (despite how little), has made me thrilled with the character. I feel we can both create our own narratives but at the same time still appreciate and respect the narrative as it is and gain greater enjoyment from it.
As I said in a prior post, as per WoB, getting view points, regardless how many, as far as Brandon is concerned does not determine whether or not a character is a main character in the narrative. It is not odd to Brandon. Adolin has changed since Way of Kings. He has opened up to Shallan and Kaladin. He has begun overcoming the insecurities that he uses the cover of a fop to hide. He is beginning to stand as his own man(in view of Dalinar, not narratively lol). Just because the spotlight is not zeroed in on him does not mean these progressions did not take place. Adolin is a very different person than he was in Way of Kings.
I am sorry it taints your entire reading experience. I guess as you have said in other posts, you need to ask yourself what is your investment worth going forward if this is the character as we read him. Please please do not read that as me telling you what to do, or how to handle it. I am just saying what you yourself have said.
This again we can agree to disagree. The characters that were needed for their scenes were there. The ones that were not needed, were not in my opinion.
An assassination attempt that did not succeed would show Ialai to be a toothless snake. She is in disgrace, and her one shot at revenge fails. Jasnah already treats her with derision, and insults her intelligence on multiple occasions, resulting in Ialai just sitting and taking it. To me the Sadeas princedom is already no longer a threat, so a failed assassination attempt resulting in them being even more in disgrace I feel does not accomplish anything new, does not have any impact, and is repetitious with what happened in Oathbringer. Adolin has already been in a near death situations where he was run through and he didn’t say his oaths. Others were in danger in Thayla and he didn’t say his oaths. I am not saying he won’t say his oaths, but if it plays out the way you offer, it feels too much of a retread of Lift. An assassin tries to kill Adolin, he realizes it, dodges but someone innocent is harmed. Instead of pursuing the killer, Adolin rushes to the innocent, remembering those who have been forgotten, bonds Maya, and heals the person (see? I can write great narratives for Adolin too ;) ). However, this is the exact scene that played out with Lift. So it would not be unique to Adolin, it would be Adolin stealing someone else’s arc. Teft went about a very different path and sounding oath than Kaladin. That’s why those scenes were so successful. Having the assassin stab Adolin, and him restoring the bond to heal reads like what happened in Shadesmar to the physical realm. Adolin is fatally hurt, then something (in that case Renarin, in this case Maya) comes along and saves the day for Adolin. So it is not a wonderful moment for Adolin, it is a wonderful moment for whoever or whatever saved him. Worthiness or not gets into theorizing how radiancy works which I will not get into as we are discussing the narrative.
So I think in summation the difference we are approaching this, and I really am doing my best to say this in every way shape and form without it being taken personally, is that I am reading the narrative for what it is, in front of us. You are reading the narrative off what you would like it to be. Now I am not saying that to diminish your reading. Please please read my explanation first before you respond. In the book Mraize says he is not allied with Ialai. I am reading the narrative based on what it says, and it says as per Mraize, him and Ialai are not connected. You feel he is lying and they could possibly be connected. That is a plot line you hope will happen. So you are seeing the narrative in that light to support it. That does not mean you are absolutely wrong and I am absolutely right. All it means is I am reading what I see in front of me, you are reading what in your opinion it could be. That is why we do not agree. I feel based on what is said in the book, those possibilities are not probable, while you feel the narrative would benefit from your interpretations for Adolin so they are probable. And that is why we will never agree. Please please please do not take what I wrote as belittling your view, nor saying you are wrong. I think I did the best I could lol.
So I have reread my prior post 5 times and I am still concerned it could be received negatively and might result in problems. It saddens me to say it may be better to not say anything at all than risk the thread devolve into a fight. I am tempted to request the moderators just delete my post. I honestly don’t know.
#145 Scath: .Did you know that you can go back to one of your posts and make corrections, even now. If you wanted to, you could delete everything in it and start over? Plan of action, pull up post in edit. Select all, and then hit delete. As far as I know, nothing forbids you from doing that. Now you have a blank post to reissue as you wish. I went through mine, when I went off on that multi dimension stuff and nothing happened to me. I put in an apology and started talking about something else. Good hunting. :)
#142 Gepeto:. Yes. We are different readers. I appreciate that you gain value in what you read, by envisioning other things than the author wrote. As you now realize, not every one finds the same approach useful or pleasurable. None of this really matters, until it enters into a serious discussion of what might happen in the novel future. I understand you may have given considerable thought to what should happened to Adolin, but if it violates the Alethi pattern of behavior it confuses the discussion among the other posters. While you are rewriting the novel, if I really like it, I read it over and over. I have read a number of series four times, I read ASOIAF nine times in a row before stopping. I have read Outlander over a dozen times. Stormlight, I am now on my at least fifth read. Each time I read a story, I see new things that I missed before. The characters become closer and closer, like someone from the neighborhood. I concentrate on what happened, not on what could happen. But then, I do not have a talent for writing.
Editing posts is only possible when you post logged in. Red usernames mean no login and therefore no editing.
#148. Birgit: .I didn’t know that. So anyone, who has a red name, can’t edit because they are not logged in. Interesting. I guess I established my login soon after coming on board. When I came back after a long break, the first thing I did was to re-establish my login. Thanks for sharing.
I really don’t have anything to add comment on the chapter except that I “listened” to Oathbringer when it came out so that I can get to the end faster. Then I re-read and re-listened, thanks to Amazon and Audible’s Whisper-sync.
Now, here’s my comment – I don’t like that Michael Kramer changed Adolin’s voice. He sounded so much older than his 23. And then of course, as I continued re-reading and re-listening, I just realized that Shallan sounded so much older than her 17 going on 18.
That said, and I hope that someone from Team Sanderson is listening/reading this because I believe that as the Stormlight Archive grows (we will be in Book 4 in two years), the characters are becoming more complex. So, please add two more voice actors – one male and one female.
For the voices of Adolin, Kaladin, Renarin and the young guys – Zachary Webber, Sebastian York or Christian Fox are great for young voices. They do young men very well.
As for Shallan, Lift and the other young women – Andi Arndt is really good.
Michael Kramer and Kate Redding can continue to be the main voices because they really do a great job. It’s just that Adolin’s voice just fell flat in my ears. I felt he was an old man, not the handsome young prince he is supposed to be.
Okay.. that’s just my thoughts.
@145: It isn’t I found your answer aggressive, but it feels to me as if you just picked various comments I made, within various discussion threads, grouped them together to make the statement I dislike the Sadeas arc because it didn’t pander to my personal head fantasies…. This comes across as a blunt generalization of many commentaries I made and it makes me sound like a sulky child putting out a tantrum because the store ran out of sweets.
I felt I wrote a much stronger case to support my dislike of this given arc. I can assure you it has nothing to do with it befitting any of my personal speculations, most of them being too wild for myself to reasonably believe the book will ever go there. I just found it enhances the reading experience and I mentioned it in response to another discussion with AlerieCorbay over reading styles. I thought speaking of how I read books and how I personally enjoyed them might give better perspective as to why some arcs feel flat to me, but works for other readers.
In shorts, I disliked the Sadeas arc because I felt it offered poor anti-climatic resolution for an emotion filled arc running high in tension. It didn’t offer any pay-off with respect to the emotions it steered into readers nor does it justify the setting it got, within the previous book, where we are told young Adolin faces either exile or execution. Mind, I never thought any of those options would actually be exercised, but I did expect a story arc worth the wait to read.
When it comes to book expectations, I usually base them on the author I am reading. For instance, I will not be expecting the same out of GRRM as I am expecting out of SA4, not because I do not enjoy both authors, but because both have very different writing style, strengths and weaknesses. Hence, when it comes to Brandon, I perhaps do not expect a strong romance arc, but I do expect climaxes, cliff-hangers and efficient management of the readers emotions. Brandon became famous by managing to create expectations into readers right before delivering the punch line which makes his stories incredibly satisfying to read. A good example? Kaladin saving Dalinar at the Tower and/or Kaladin jumping into the 4 on 1 duel. These were predictable, the built-up was there, but reading it unfolding was among my favorite reading moments within the last years. Hence yes, I did expect Brandon would deliver onto the Sadeas arc. I never expected him to write anything anywhere close to stories I make up in my head for my own personal enjoyment, but I did expect him to come up with a narrative which would explore the emotions he steered in not just myself, but a great deal lot of readers.
On this front, Brandon did not deliver. I didn’t find it a clever twist nor a great subversion, I found it a boring anti-climatic outcome for a much anticipated arc. Just because a story arc comes as unexpected does not mean it is a great story arc: sometimes by trying to subvert too many tropes, a narrative gets boring. Sometimes, subverting a narrative delivers wonderful turn-over, such as Eshonai dying, but other times, it doesn’t.
For the rest, I never expect a recurrent, regular viewpoint character to turn into nothing more than a foil be it within Brandon Sanderson’s books or anyone else. I find it most unsatisfying as foils and plot devices are roles usually given to POV-less characters or sporadic ones. What Brandon did with Adolin, it remains undefined. He worked really well as a foil in WoK, as a plot device in WoR but, IMHO, he outgrew this role by the end of WoR. Brandon once said it was important to allow characters to grow into the story. I however feel with Adolin he is doing the opposite: he is forcing the character to remain static and to act as a side-kick when he actually has a story of his own to tell.
@147: I don’t mind other people being different reader than myself. I however do not why you state my posts are disregarding the Alethi behavior. The Alethi behavior is ruthless and vengeful. The Alethi behavior would be to oppose Dalinar, to shun Adolin and to demand retribution or, worst, to take it by arms. More important however is Adolin’s behavior. Back in WoR, he is written out as not dealing with his own actions very well, hence when the narrative make him act as if it never happened, I find it doesn’t work well with the previous book. It also contradicts Brandon’s own WoB where he stated it was impossible to have one character murder another without it being consequences to oneself. With Adolin, he wrote zero consequences, both internal and external. I wouldn’t mind if he didn’t explore the later, but the former, there ought to be something unless Adolin is to be a psychopath which I don’t think is the intended result.
@150: You make me please I never listened to the book :-O I have heard negative comments on the voice actors for OB. I believe some were forwarded to Brandon, but I do not recall what he said about it. Hopefully, they can re-edit.
@150: Getting two readers for an audio book is rare. We care lucky it happened for WoT and now SA.
I was confused by Adolin’s voice changing during the book. A few chapters I downright hated. Then a friend pointed out that his voice shifts when he’s wearing a disguise.
I can’t recall right now if Veil has a different voice than Shallan. But Veil is “older” than Shallan.
I don’t think we will ever get 4 voices for an audio book. But we might get a shift of readers for the back 5 books of SA. It makes me sad to think about , but would be the right time.
If you want a fuller cast sound , try the Graphic Audio version.
I’m not even going to try to catch up on the other comments for now.
@152 Braid_Tug – Actually, having two readers is more common than we think. I guess you already know that I’m a romance junkie (LOL) So, it will not be a surprise to you that I am actually subscribed to Audible’s Romance Package. I can honestly say that 50% of the books there have two readers – a male and female.
That said, it was actually not surprising for me to have two readers for the Stormlight Archive. In fact, I was actually surprised that with its complexity, there are only two readers. I was expecting at least three – 2 males and one female. 2 males because of the different ages of male leads. Dalinar and all the men around his age group should have one while Kaladin, Adolin, Renarin and those in their age group should have one. I believed that time that we only needed one female reader. But with Oathbringer, I honestly felt there should be two female readers.
As for books with more than 2 readers – Girl on the Train has three readers. Northanger Abbey (Jane Austen book) have 6 readers, an all star cast actually.
In short, I am wishing and hoping that Team Sanderson consider going that extra mile. :-)
@153: If you haven’t picked them up, I highly recommend Mary Robinette Kowal’s Glamourist Histories. Only the last one “Of Noble Family” has 3 readers, but for the rest Mary is really good at doing multiple voices. For “Of Noble Family” her charters are in Antigua. Mary knew she could not do the Antiguan accent correctly and did not want to give offence. So extra people were brought in. The male lead, Prentice Onayemi, has a voice I could listen to for days.
As for 4 voices for the SA – that sounds cool, but I’m not sure how that would affect production times. Hard to coordinate. And I’m not sure if Team Sanderson really has that much control over the process.
@154 Braid_Tag Thanks!!! I’ll definitely read this series. Sounds very interesting. Thank you for telling me about this. :-)
Regarding the strata discussion, the descriptions of the Singers’ marbled skin remind me of the strata in Urithiru and Kholinar. A few descriptions that stand out:
Skin:
Stone:
Most interesting, Shallan compares the Urithiru strata to veins:
I’m curious if the Singer marbled skin is a feature of evolving on Roshar to blend in with their environment, or if their marbled skin carries something (“not blood”), similar to the theories that the Urithiru strata carries some type of investiture. I also feel like the rhythms are connected to this somehow, but have no idea how it all fits together.
RE: Adolin killing Sadeas
First, it was murder. Adolin says it was.
Second, I think he was pushed into it by Odium. The description wasn’t quite like that of The Thrill, but it did say that all of a sudden he felt an overwhelming anger. Plus, I don’t see Odium as an opportunist who would simply take advantage of something that just “happened” like Sadeas’ death. Rather, he would push it to happen in order to have the tool available for use later in Thaylen City.
@157, RogerPavelle–the thing is, the Unmade that causes the Thrill of battle was nowhere near Urithuru then, if I remember right. Nergaoul had already moved toward Thaylena (sp?) to participate in the future battle there.
Not all anger is directly caused by Odium-the-thinking-being, any more than all destruction is directly caused by Sazed-as-Harmony-which-includes-Ruin, or all desire for independence is part of the secret plans of the bearer of the shard Autonomy. Do you think Autonomy is influencing, say, the Horneaters to prevent them from becoming Vorin and joining the dominant culture?
@158, Carl – I’m not saying it was the Thrill (no images of “seeing red”, for instance). What I’m saying is that it was reminiscent of that when I first read Words of Radiance, and that it was such a sudden, overwhelming sense of anger that I wouldn’t be surprised if it was influenced by Odium as part of his larger plans.
Consider: Odium says that he had prepared the Sadeas soldiers to be taken over in Thaylen City by stoking their anger/frustration at Torol Sadeas’ death. This was because Adolin wasn’t caught. What would have happened, though, if he was? Dalinar would have been forced to do something drastic to Adolin (execute, banish, disinherit, etc.) or do nothing. Either of those would have harmed Dalinar emotionally and morally, which would leave him further weakened when confronted by The Thrill in Thaylen (possibly tipping the balance). And, probably, most of the Sadeas soldiers would still be angry.
This seems like the kind of long term planning Odium would adopt.